Help please!

[birdy750]

Hi all-- I'm really not new here--I read constantly--just don't type!! I've been separated from my N for almost 7 months now-have been reading nonstop and trying to heal for myself and my children. A son (20) who has been really affected by Dads behavior and a daughter(12) who is displaying some very "voiceless" behaviors. She makes great grades but across the board "participation" continues to be a problem--afraid of making a mistake . My N was a speech-maker, there was no give and take in a conversation--only manipulation and control till he got his way-no matter how long it took OR what he had to say to break us down. Through the years we all learned the rules---the silence--and the pain it brings.

Problem is--he moved 3,000 miles away--wants my daughter to come and visit--and she really doesn't want to go this time. I hear her say "that would be fun" to him--then get off the phone and say "please don't make me go to California!!". I of course am the bad guy-which I'm used to ,(but sick of!)--when I say she can't this time. I am trying desparately to help a 12 year old find her voice to speak her heart to a man she does love--but is afraid to say no to. My son reminds me that even if she manages the "no"--that the questions and rheteric she will have to endure will be so painful for her--and the guilt he will inflict. He has taken to outlining my responsibilities as a mother--in case I somehow forgot that I have single handledly raised these two children that deserve to say what they mean. Anyone out there have some advice for me??? I'd appreciate it!!

[DivineSunshine]

HEY BIRDY--

i am so sorry to hear about your situation. I frequently find myself in similar tug-of-wars with my  N husband as he tries to manipulate the kids and use mind control on them.  It's called emotional blackmail.  And the kids have absolutely no way to defend themselves from it.  Especially coming from a parent.  There's a great book called--Emotional Blackmail----a fantastic read for this type of person and situation.

i have a couple of kids who are total people pleasers who really get sucked in.  It makes me want to smack him most of the time.  i don't have any advice, I just wanted to say i feel for ya!  i know how it is and you are not alone!  i am used to being seen as the bad guy in all situations because that is what these N's want.  Sometimes that seems to be the only reason I stick around in the same house with him is so I can distract him from using this kind of manipulation on them.  I dread when they are left to deal with him and i am not there to run interference.

At least this is a long distance thing....right?  Maybe you could just NOT ANSWER??   ha ha!

Take care & post more.  I know there are lots out there who have really good advise.  They have helped me many times before.

Namaste,

Sunny

[isittoolate]

hi birdy,

In life, honesty is important. She is lying to her Dad to say she would like to go, and then telling you her true feelngs.

I know she is only 12, but she must say the words "I don't want to go!" or whatever.

Then comes his "why?"

Then comes something she must be prepared to say that is her truth!!!!!!

Just like that......................but it sure isn't simple!

Good Luxk
Izzy

[Leah]

Hi Birdy,

Ditto Izzy's comments.

Honesty and openness is the only way forward.

Not easy, but the best.

Leah xx

[Hopalong]

Hi Birdy,
I send you so much compassion.

My D couldn't voice her hurt and anger to her father until she was a teenager. I felt my heart being pulled out when I heard her finally say over the phone, you never came to see me for me, only when it worked into your playtime...why did you never come just to see me?

He responded with seething criticism and a cruel letter. It was horrible to witness but what I clung to was that she saw reality then. He was willing to hurt her badly, his first child, his only daughter.
She was not allowed to resist ... and he would not apologize. She continued to love him and he her in his limited way, but I could see her child-self crumble then.

I don't know how much you can ask of a 12 y/o...to stand up against an N father--think how we adult women and even bright therapists are often overcome. I think maybe you could tell her, all you have to do is tell him that you really do not want to come and give one reason, and then hand the phone to me...

If she does it, it will be good for her, but also terribly painful. Do you suppose you could ask a seasoned child's counselor what they think?

I don't know if that's the right advice. I hope others here can help.

I'm so sorry you and she are going through this.

Hops

[birdy750]

Sunny,Izzy,Leah,Hops and Bean!!
Thanks so much for your much needed advice. The situation stays on my heart--constantly. NH and my son haven't spoken since August--and my daughter is quite aware of her Dads treatment of her brother. She has heard the rages towards my son and I--and she is afraid that he will soon turn on her.That is my fear as well--and he will--as soon as she "has a mind of her own"--and no longer is trying to please daddy. I guess I am afraid I'll not be there to run interference as you said.

Last night she and I discussed "being open and honest" with Dad--not sending confusing messages. She thought about what she might say--and practiced---she suggested an e-mail, so she didn't have to hear the sound of his voice and his "reaction". I thought that was quite cleaver--she really is a people pleaser as you all put it--and very sensitive--if not a little chicken this time!!

So--this time--an e-mail it is--but open and honest. And we will work on recognizing the "triggers" that make people say yes to spare someones feelings--when we really need to pause for a moment--and hone in on how we really feel--on what we really want to saywhat we want to say--and say it !

I truly appreciate your kind words, encouragement and compassion!!  I feel like I didn't stand tall enough for my son,now 20, and he is suffering with some N related issues---I am stronger now and will not watch it happen all over again!!! Thank you for caring.

birdy
I really appreciate

[Gaining Strength]

Birdy - I have a different take.  I grew up with a father who would fit the description that you give of your daughter's father.  Voiceless to say  No has cause me very severe problems across my life - including the problem on not being able to say no to lecherous males.  That cause me danger and great shame and humiliation.  Nevertheless - saying no to my father even today is not worth the pain.  In fact I received a rare call from him yesterday and I am reeling from it.  Not because of the content but because it must have touched some buttons from my childhood that I have not yet resolved.  But the words that come to me today are condemned and inadequate.  To feel those things for a lifetime is indescribable. 

As a child - there is no question but that I could only answer my father the way he demanded.  There was no room for NO.  There was and is absolutely no reasonable place for action.  I strongly echo CB123's suggestion that you find a counselor or therapist who understand Narcissistic parents.  With help you can find a way to give your daughter voice. 

Talking with an N is much like talking to a child.  When she learns to say no she needs to do so without an explanation because an N will argu any explanation.  I like the idea of using email.  That would give her some distance.  I strongly recommend that you let her know that her father is not able to understand her and that you know how painful and difficult that is for her.  But I really encourage you to find a therapist who has real understanding about the trials of growing up with an N father. - yours - GS

[reallyME]

birdy,

I would like to suggest that you go to the Sam Vaknin boards or other boards online that explain about what Narcissistic behavior looks like.  Sit with your daughter and teach her which behaviors to recognize...most of all, explain to her that the ISSUES are on the "father's" side, not HERS.  Prepare her to hear what he will say and then prepare her about how to respond.

If you still see that it's not working, Bean had some really great advice too.  YOU do the talking with the "man."  Either way, don't be surprised if you find yourselves both going in circles.  That's just an N's style.

Best thing in my opinion is to change your phone number, cut him OFF ENTIRELY, so your daughter and you have some PEACE in life and are able to move on.

~Laura

[debkor]

Hey Birdy,

I agree with CB, Therapy would be a really good thing to help your child find and use their voice.

I worked for a counseling agency who dealt mainly with children. 

Alot of these children were abused. We did court ordered custody cases so these kids were feeling torn to begin with and shut down their voices or were to afraid to ever have one.
We had an art therapist there.  The pictures the kids drew and how they could interpert them was amazing.  Things we never would notice. They also could wear a mask when they spoke so they would feel more comfortable. 
As soon as the kids walked off the elevator they were hit with a waiting room full of toys.  They would see me or the other girl who worked besides me first and we always dressed down. Mostly jeans. We appeared as (no threat) comfortable place.
One of the therapist had pictures of his Golden Retriever all over his walls, kids loved it. They would look and touch the pictures and talk away. Some of the kids would sit under the desk to talk,on the desk to talk, walk and talk.
I think I did that myself with exception of sitting under the desk.  I think I am too big.
I always had things from my own kids that they made for me in my office for the kids to see. The kids who came in would draw and add to my collection. I even wore a macaroni necklace painted with gold paint that my daughter made. You think you have rare and unique jewelery. I have uncooked Ziti's top that.
It was a very kid friendly atmosphere. My own kids wanted to go to work with me all the time.

Therapy may be an idea for you to think about as an option.
Love
Deb

[sandra]

Hey Birdy

I am so sorry you and your daughter are hurting so much..

My NH left last summer and i have two children my son is 16 years old and only sees his dad for about five minutes a week......His sister who is 12years old sees her dad every Wednesday evenings and all day Sunday..

He is supposed to take both children but my son very rarely wants to go saying that he has better things to do with his time.
My daughter however loves her time with her dad as he is giving her all the attention that he has never given her in her life before.... the trouble is he is just using her to get information about what i am doing, buying or where i go to.....
the trouble is she is going to crash when she finds this out for herself.

Just be there to help and support you daughter through this troubled time in her life....and just keep sending letters or e-mails so that she doesn't have to talk to him.

take care (((((((((((((((((to you both)))))))))))))))))))

sandra x

[gratitude28]

((((((((((((((((((Birdy)))))))))))))))))))))))

Congratulations, first, on being strong and getting away. It sounds like you are doing a great job of regrouping and recognizing where your family can grow to overcome some of the difficulties you have been through.

I will tell you... last week my mother talked to the kids and exclaimed she wants them to come and stay with her for a week. They told her, "Oh, how nice." Then, when they got off the phone, they told me they are afraid of her and don't want to be in her house alone. I told them we would make sure that never happens and that we will think of a reason to not be able to go...

I am not sure what your custody arrangement is with your ex, but if you could avoid having your daughter go, I would... no matter what.

I am not surprised your son has advice for you... as Oscar Wilde pointed out, we are no longer young enough to know everything. LOL. But it is nice he is looking out for you and cares.

Keep us posted Birdy.
Love, Beth