Bringing my H into counseling...

[camper]

My therapist asked what we could accomplish...what would we work on.  This is assuming we can't tell H he is the one with the problem. 

Where would I start.  I just couldn't tell him where to start becasue I want to point fingers and accuse. 

H is home....hope to hear form you

[Overcomer]

Is your husband a N?  Does the therapist know it?  Unfortunately therapy often takes a long time to get to the issues but if you get him there that is a good start.

[camper]

My H is an N.  Have any of you ever been in this situation?  My H is willing because he really wants a good marriage.  For him a good marriage would be for me to be his little puppet.  He has to learn what he is doing to me.  Where does a person start though?

[Overcomer]

Well my mom and I went to counseling and she did it clearly to fix me.  My exh And I went and it was better.  I guess it depends on how honest your h is.  I would make a list of things and incidences and read them and let your husband respond.  Although if he is like my mom he will put his own spin on them.

[dandylife]

It is a difficult thing. The theory is that you don't tell an N they need therapy because they will just go into denial and they are not good candidates for therapy anyway. SOME N's do, however, realize they have a problem and are willing to get help, usually only, like an alcoholic, when they have hit bottom and are all out of supply. Doesn't sound like yours is there.

How I went about things was I got therapy first - for a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship. I learned all about the signs of abuse, setting boundaries and dealing with people in an assertive manner.

Then (fast forward about 4 years later) I am now back in a relationship with my ex-husband and we now have a totally different dynamic in our relationship. I insisted upon him getting therapy for borderline personality disorder with N tendencies before I would consider trying again. And he did it.

We still struggle sometimes, but things are generally good.

Dandylife

[poetprose]

My H, did go to councelling with me, and a couple of issues were brought up

But as soon as the therapist got to close, my hubby just sort of Bolted.... he didn't want to go any more

My therapist said to me after in regards to my hubby , : "You realise that he is esposed, I said yes,  he then said " this is a very crucial spot",,,, I said i know

maybe with some people it may be a " hit and miss" in that it might take a few attempts on his or her part before they are ready to face their own inner demons* so to speak

i think coming out of denial is a tender thing... and it should be handled with professionalism and sensitivity

[cats paw]

Hi Camper,
 
    How long have you been seeing your T?  Did you share that with him (the T) - that you just wanted to point fingers and accuse?  That- to me- shows self- awareness on your part.  Did T help you explore where you might want to start?

[camper]

Well my mom and I went to counseling and she did it clearly to fix me.  My exh And I went and it was better.  I guess it depends on how honest your h is.  I would make a list of things and incidences and read them and let your husband respond.  Although if he is like my mom he will put his own spin on them.

Sounds like great advice.  My H may try to put a spin on it but the therapist would see right through it.

The theory is that you don't tell an N they need therapy because they will just go into denial and they are not good candidates for therapy anyway. SOME N's do, however, realize they have a problem and are willing to get help, usually only, like an alcoholic, when they have hit bottom and are all out of supply. Doesn't sound like yours is there.

How I went about things was I got therapy first - for a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship. I learned all about the signs of abuse, setting boundaries and dealing with people in an assertive manner.

Then (fast forward about 4 years later) I am now back in a relationship with my ex-husband and we now have a totally different dynamic in our relationship. I insisted upon him getting therapy for borderline personality disorder with N tendencies before I would consider trying again. And he did it.

We still struggle sometimes, but things are generally good.

Dandylife:  It is so great to hear you are back with your H!  I was beginning to lose hope here.  I think I need to learn how to deal with people in an assertive manner.  I am, as some of you on this forum have indicated of yourselves, "too nice".  How do you distinguish BPD as apposed to N?

I hvae only seen my T twice now.  I didn't share I wanted to point fingers and I really don't do that anyway but How do I point fingers back at me so as to fix him....question for the T I guess.  T has posed the question where we would start if I brought H in but I am not sure I know where.  There is just so much stuff. 

What if I had H go and tell T what he thought we needed to work on?

By the way, you guys(WI talk) are all so quick and good.  I appreciate all of you!

Thanks!!   MaryKay

[Margo]

My therapist asked what we could accomplish...what would we work on.  This is assuming we can't tell H he is the one with the problem. 

Where would I start.  I just couldn't tell him where to start becasue I want to point fingers and accuse. 

H is home....hope to hear form you

I think that if you want your h to hear you and the T.... you have to phrase things so that he hears them in encouraging postive ways.  If he hears them at all.  You can't go in pointing and shaming and expect him to sit there for it.  He won't.  Not unless he's got some seriouse pressure, like a Divorce hanging over his head, IMO. 

Sam Vaknin suggested making a list of his strengths and weaknesses then coming up with a plan to minimize and maximize each.  Concrete do's and don'ts that can be implemented with consequences attached to help enforce them.  The hope is that he learns to replace some bad habits with better ones but..... don't expect that any true learning will take place.... or he'll really gain empathy for you.

Good luck, in any case.  Margo

Good luck and let us know how therapy works out for you.  Margo 

[dandylife]

There are a number of differences between NPD and BPD. The hallmark difference with someone who has BPD is that they will do almost anything NOT to be "abandoned". Mind you, in their mind abaondonment can mean being gone at the store too long, or spending time with your sister instead of them, whatever - that's why it's a personality disorder - they don't look at things like a normal person would.

So we had to work on all that. I had to boil it down to the specific behaviors for him to work on - not just "fix your bpd". It was "When I go to lunch with my mom, I can't have you complain, mope and go to bed all day because you're upset. You must come to grips with the fact that I have a life outside of you and that's the way it will be. Find coping mechanisms and use them."

ETC, etc. (Long story short and all that.)

Dandylife

[axa]

Well guys call me an old cynic but personally I think and in my experience it is a complete waste of time and money an N going to therapy.  I think XN went to four in a three year period and I paid for half of the costs which really annoys me.  He went with me initially because he was so scared I would leave him.  He never really got it, the only time he came close was with his last T who told him he was narcissistic, which he found funny, but as soon as he challenged him to look at his own behaviour he ran.  He had no interest in changing he really just wanted me to shut up and he would get good supply and attention from me while I listened to his musing about his therapy.  He was quite aware that he was not "normal" whatevr that means.  I think he probably meant that he recognised that he did not have any empathy.  Is it possible to learn empathy as an adult...... I doubt it.  I think there is some relationship between empathy and development of the limbic part of the brain. 

Bottm line is that the underlying problem with Ns is that they lack empathy.  Nobody with any empathy could behave in the ways they do and my two cents worth is that its too late.

axa

[Gaining Strength]

One of the things you can do camper by having H in therapy is allow your T to witness what you experience.  One of the first hurdles you must get over is the hope that anything you do will change your H.  That will not happen.  It can be so difficult to understand but all you can get out of therapy concerning that is to learn to change your expectations.  But it can be of great value to have your T witness your experience with your H.  Throught this process you can get validation and support and direction.

Good luck to you - GS

[debkor]

I found in Therapy with exn it was a waste of time for (me) with him.  The T named what he was validated my feelings.  He then tried to work with my ex.  Holy Moley,!  my ex twisted everything he said.  There was not one suggestion, tool he gave my ex that he didn't turn into his advantage.  (Relaxation)  the beach method so my ex would not lose his patience was turned into being able to block me out. He would yell it!  I'm at the beach, the waves are coming, the sun is on my face, I don't hear you. Then to even aggravate me more he would say I was on the beach too (naked).
It's going to take me a long time to get empathy, there is no magic wand, Doc said so!!! So if I keep doing these things he said it's OK, this is what happens.

I think he thought he was finally at his level (thinks) because he was talking to someone with a PHD.  He said the T understood everything about him. YES HE DID!! but the ex twisted what the T was really saying or he was processing it in his mind that the T was his friend (his back up). 
No matter what the T said or how he tried to put it to my ex (he twisted it)  Never really heard what the T said in full.
Took bits and PCs and made up some (crap in his head) of how he thought it should be.

So No I think therapy for an N is not going to help.  Maybe help the N with their delusions (of what is being said) only for more strategy for their *gas lighting* techniques against you. They manipulate everything!!
Only time I was ok with exN (to a point) is when I stopped making it personal.  It truly wasn't.  I was not special it was not personal against me. It was just who they are.  Either I could accept it or not.  I chose Not. 

That was just my experience with N and therapy. 
I wish you lots of luck Camper mabye you can work things out! I could not.

Love
Deb.

[axa]

DEb

Similiar experience also.  "we are all responsible for our own feeling" was one of his favourites, sure we are, but when you are being used as an emotional punchbag it is difficlut not to FEEL.  I think the dumb fool intrepted this as I can do anything to you and your feelings are your problem.  I laugh now when I think of the games that went on there.  XN put on "little boy" act, holding my hand and pretending to be shy.  I think he loved the attention.  Also I dont believe that particular T saw through him and he loved playing Mr Nice Guy.  We would go for dinner afterwards and inevitably MR N would re appear.

Something else that struck me about Xn was that it was impossible to have a conversation with him.  He never did get what a conversation was about.  Usually he made a statement which if I agreed with that was ok if not he saw it as a personal attack on him.  God but trying to converse with him got soooooooooooooo boring.

axa

[axa]

CB

I really wish I had taped some of the "conversations" we had.  They were so off the wall.  He invited his xwife to move back into his house because I missed a phone call from him one evening = it is all your fault she lives int he house.  He wanted his D to move in and work with me for the summer because the reality of living with her mother was not pleasant I said no because I knew this was just using me again = my D is unhappy because of you.  She needs your hugs blah blah blah.  It was all soooooooo crazy.  i felt like I was part of the Jerry Springer show half the time.  Nothing was ever based on reality.  What a nutcase.

xxxaxa