Author Topic: New here, random thoughts  (Read 4353 times)

Anonymous

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New here, random thoughts
« on: March 24, 2004, 02:58:44 PM »
A recent encounter with my mother led me to this board.  I've been reading many of the posts, both past and present.  Some of them make me laugh, thinking, I know exactly what that person is saying.  And some of them make me feel the familiar anger.

I will just type random thoughts as they come to me, and I would love to read about others' encounters with your N parents or "loved" ones, too.

Do any of you deal with an N parent who is obsessed with God, preachers, or religion?  Does it make you ill to hear them talk about being a Christian or to hear them talk about others when they can't see the hypocrisy in themselves?  

Being that I am in the process of extracting myself from an organized religion for the past couple of years, I especially find my N mother's religious talk to be irritating to my soul -- like a cheese grater on raw skin.  

Also, she has grand ideas.  I must say, before I go any further, that she has not been diagnosed by a professional, but silently, by me.  And having lived with the woman and having to sort through childhood crap and having done much self-reflection and observation of my family dynamic, I feel qualified to say that the woman has this disorder -- or something akin to it.  I bet many of you are nodding your heads because you know what it's like to have to be a step ahead of these people, which causes a paranoia in yourself and an insanity that overtakes you.

Okay, so back to these grand ideas.  What does that mean, exactly?  I'm just beginning to look into this disorder, although at the times she was making me intolerably insane, I was researching schizophrenia.  Does "ideas of grandeur" mean general ideas of ridiculous things, or does it have solely something to do with wealth and power?

For example, just one of her ideas:  her husband and all his family are into the occult or are some sort of witches.  Of course, she hates her husband, but she won't leave because she can't take care of herself financially.  When she did have a steady job, she didn't stay for long because all her co-workers were against her in some way.

When she does have "friends," they are all older women.  In my many ponderings, I have come to believe that these women represent some sort of mother figure to her, as she was deprived a mother both in physical and emotional presence.  Usually, there is a "falling out" with people to whom she becomes intimate.  

And here is something I've read here and as some of the posters say, they can't believe they think it or say it, but these people drive you into madness and sadness.  It's as though there's no hope for them and you can't escape them, ever.  So the only escape you have is death.  And as sad as it makes you, sometimes you just wish they could find their peace in it, or you in your own.

I have many thoughts, but I don't want to make this post too lengthy, so I'll continue later.

Anonymous

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Re: New here, random thoughts
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2004, 03:05:42 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
Does "ideas of grandeur" mean general ideas of ridiculous things, or does it have solely something to do with wealth and power?


It means distorted exaggerations that are quite unrealistic, yet the grandiose person believes them as reality.

Your mother may indeed be psychiatrically disturbed. You can decide how far along the continuum of craziness she is, and protect yourself accordingly.

bunny

RedRose

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New here, random thoughts
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2004, 03:14:19 PM »
"continuum of craziness"

I like that.   :)

I have a log-in name, but it didn't register for some reason, so my first post was as "Guest."

Trying another post to see if "RedRose" shows . . .

seeker

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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2004, 04:55:21 PM »
Hi Red Rose,

Quote
Do any of you deal with an N parent who is obsessed with God, preachers, or religion? Does it make you ill to hear them talk about being a Christian or to hear them talk about others when they can't see the hypocrisy in themselves?


Oh boy, this is something I am very familiar with.  It is quite common among people with an extreme need to be "right" to hang onto their religious perspective/dogma/upbringing in order to be standing on the Home Free spot.  They are in the right club (or should I say The Right Club?  :wink: )  It is their cloak of safety.

In my case, I have two signficant examples of individuals who absolutely needed to be "above reproach".  If they speak for God, who can argue?  Who can have an opinion greater than God?  :shock: I get a little "ill" as you say, when they start preaching their intolerance at me.  "WWJD about that person whom you are disparaging?" I want to shout.

This isn't just among Ns.  It can be a sign of GroupThink and nothing more.  But great examples of N+religion among literature are The Scarlet Letter, Hunchback of Notre Dame, and my favorite The Poisonwood Bible.

Agree with Bunny's observations re your mom.  Just wanted to throw this in.  Good luck, Seeker

RedRose

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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2004, 09:11:27 PM »
Seeker,

I agree with your observations about the religious group think, as that can happen with any subject.  I know it can be independent of psychological disorders and just a need humans have as social animals.

It is less tolerable from a person who has NPD, as you know.  I love to read, and I am actually reading Poisonwood Bible for the second time.  A powerful book, indeed, and I see your point about the N father.  

Throughout the story, you see a person so caught in his own beliefs or need to be God's speaker, that he has no other care.  When he looks at his wife and daughters, he really isn't seeing them.  He is seeing through them, and they are just inferior objects most of the time and tools for his supreme appointment.

Religion and narcissism and power and narcissism are lethal combinations.

Gingerpeach

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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2004, 11:04:34 AM »
Absolutely, Ns love religion!  And politics too. they are very similar, aren't they?  My soon to be exNH was both!  Besides having a business, he was on our town council.  Then he annouced that he wanted to go to school for a Masters of Divinity. And he did.

Of course he was also having an affair and spending hours on porn sites.  And chatting in pornographic chat rooms and exchanging nude pictures over the internet.  You should have seen some of the emails to his girlfriend.....God has brought our hearts together, (not to mention other body parts.)

But the hypocrisy of this does not occur to Ns.  God loves them exactly as they are.  God makes no judgments.  Which is how they justify doing whatever they do.  I think that it even relieves them of worrying about it.  If God forgives them everything, every time, then what is there to worry about....they can do whatever they like.  And they do !!  Hey....no sweat, I'll be forgiven !!

And don't forget the "image" part of it.  Ns just love being thought of as "fine and upstanding."  They just love being admired.  What better way? Have you ever seen how many women simper over the minister?  And tell him how inspiring and wonderful he is? And invite him for coffee?  Ns just eat that up !!!  It's regular supply and in enormous quantities too.

When our church found out about his affair (not through me, although I was tempted) and told him that he was no longer a candidate for the ministry, and cut off their sponsorship of his schooling,  he simply changed denominations !!  Just like that. Within two weeks!  Hey,  why waste my time, if their God won't have me, someone else's God will. Their God is soooooo unforgiving.  So, I found me a better one, one that doesn't ask too many questions !!

So forgive my sarcasm,  I just got really tired of being berated for not going to Bible classes like a good little girl. And being told that I couldn't possible know what a spiritual experience was.  And for not wanting to listen to hymns all day. And....and....and.......aaaauuuuggggghhh!

O, he's still having affairs, one with one of the other ministerial candidates.  And another with a married woman.  But, I am vey happily out of there !!

Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2004, 12:40:53 PM »
Hello again,

Gingerpeach, wow!  did you hit the N nail on the head!  Totally agree with the appeal politics and religion hold for Ns.  Don't forget acting!  Anything with an audience.  Ns can yap away on any topic and are entirely turned off by dialogue.  The benefits are plentiful: supply without responsibility, no listening required, being set above everyone else, etc. etc.  M. Scott Peck pointed out the appeal of religion for Ns too in People of the Lie.  I felt so validated.

Red Rose, know what you mean about the cheese grater feeling.  I sometimes get the feeling that oneof the Ns in my life feels that religion is a competition.  (cringe).  Since you are extracting yourself from a particular group, you may want to look into 7 Paths to God (it's on Dr. Grossman's reading list with a link to amazon if you want more details).  I really appreciated the author's introduction.  She refers to family members who cluck and shake their heads sadly at her for not following "their" way.  

I notice that your mom isn't "diagnosed".  She doesn't need to be.  You have already identified the nature of the exchanges between you whether it is labeled or not, and you know something is amiss. One of the best books I've read about the dynamic you describe in your original post is Controlling People by Patricia Evans.  Maybe some of the characters in Poisonwood Bible could have been saved if they had this book!  :D
Quote
he really isn't seeing them. He is seeing through them,

This book focuses on the dynamics (vs. the diagnosis) like wha you describe above about the dad character.  It suggests how to break the "spell" these people try to cast over you and keep your grip on reality.  Well, I'm glad you like to read cuz there I go again with the books  :wink:

Thanks for starting this great thread.  Seeker

RedRose

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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2004, 01:36:32 PM »
Gingerpeach,

I will forgive your sarcasm, as one who enjoys a little bit of it, herself.   :D

Seriously, I can "feel" your irritation through your post, and you are entitled to it.  When you said that they do not see their hypocrisy because God will forgive them, I understand exactly what you are saying.  And, that can be applied to people in general -- people who are not N, but in a religion where all you have to do is "believe in Jesus."  It's truly like a grater, isn't it?  I just don't want to hear about God and the Bible and Pastor so-and-so, anymore, but especially from my mother.

RedRose

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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2004, 01:42:51 PM »
Seeker,

Thanks for the book suggestion.  I must compile a list.  There are several books I need to order.  Also, when visiting another forum, I have seen the title of this book suggested:  When You and Your Mother Can't be Friends.

I haven't yet read any reviews of the book, so I don't know how deeply it delves into the psychological aspect of parent/child relationship between mother and daughter in regards to disorders.

Gingerpeach

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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2004, 06:01:33 PM »
Yes Red Rose, it is definitely not limited to Ns.  Fortunately, my mother hasn't imposed religion on me since 1967 when she defected from it herself !!  It was the N husband that did, so that is why I was coming from that perspective.

Generally, I run from religious fanatics.  And if I had known that the NH was going to turn into one, I would have.  And actually, if he hadn't insisted that I buy into it too, I wouldn't have minded as much as I did.  But that's a whole 'nother N thing.....control.  

Red Rose, you have my deepest sympathy that you are subjected to that from your mother or from anyone.  Know in your heart that sprituality hasn't a damn thing to do with religion.

Here's a quote about it from Tom Robbins:

"You know, religion is organized spirituality. But there's an inherent contradiction there, because the moment you try to organize spirituality, you destroy its essence. So religion is spirituality in which the spiritual has been killed."

Good one, huh?  Hang in there Red Rose !!!

surf14

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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2004, 11:36:53 AM »
Yes Red Rose;
 I've always felt that religion and spirituality were distinctly different  entities;  and religion may have nothing to do with spirituality and may fill very different needs for people than providing a means to God.  True spirituality doesn't impose, threaten or sicken.  Surf
"In life pain is inevitable, suffering is optional".

rosencrantz

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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2004, 01:16:50 PM »
My own family wasn't into religion but my mother's sister/clone was in a big way.  Something totally different ie not mainstream and most people wouldn't have heard of it.  It made them superior.  Caused rifts.  I can remember tagging along to their 'meetings' when I went to stay.  Painful!  Nobody ever bothered to tell me what to do in this unfamiliar territory. I had been raised to believe I should always 'know' everything already anyway so it wouldn't occur to me to ask.

Just another means of humiliating other people by being more powerful and holier than thou.

I bought "When you and your mother can't be friends" without much hope of a good read - I'd read 'all' the mother and daughter books there were years ago.  Well, seems it's time to pay attention again - things have moved on and I definitely found myself in there.  It's worth a read.
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Anonymous

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Religion . . . Spirituality . . . God
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2004, 02:15:53 PM »
I was not raised in a spiritual or religious household, so I was not spiritually abused in any way (thank God!).  It was in my early twenties when I was feeling like there was nothing in life and I felt like "what is wrong with me?" so I started going to church on my own in an attempt to find some help.  I have to tell you, it has been my relationship with God through the years that has helped me more than anything.  I am not overly "religious" and don't cram it down other people's throats.  I had no one else to turn to, so it was "God, if you're there, please HELP!"  You know what, He did!  :D

I'm 44 now and, looking back, there has never been anything that has helped me more than my relationship with God.  I have ignored Him through the years and always ended up back on my knees asking for help (because over time I learned it worked!).

I just wanted to add a positive spin on relationships with God.  I know a lot of you have been spiritually abused, but I wanted to take the time to also show that not every relationship that is "spiritual" or deemed "religious" is a bad one.  

I am not preaching to anyone here, just passing on what has worked so well for me and giving credit where credit is due.  I am truly sorry for those of you who were "forced" or "abused" by this.  I think if you seek it on your own terms, there is a much different outcome.  :)

Survivor

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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2004, 03:01:16 PM »
:oops: That was me above . . . keep forgetting to log in!

Survivor  :wink:

rosencrantz

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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2004, 04:49:36 PM »
You're right, of course - it's the difference between 'acting' and 'being'.  I have wanted religion to offer something to me but churches, with all their politics, have never managed it.  Individual people can offer something but churches don't.  I met one vicar who really practiced forgiveness - he really knew what it meant in the truest Christian sense and I 'came closer' as a result - but he retired soon after I got to know him.   Disappointing how much the church changed as soon as he went.  That was the second time that happened. Nevertheless, it was a good experience.

I became friends with some folk from another group - they were very active in my community and my son started going with one of them to Sunday School.  I was shocked to discover they really actually believed that you were doomed if you didn't believe in their particular brand of religion - no, not just their 'brand' but their actual specific 'them'.

Wow - I just don't have that kind of thought in me at all!  Everyone to their own.  Whatever way you can find solace or salvation is fine in my book - I'm just glad for you.  

I've come closer to a lot of spiritual stuff in recent years - if you look closely at it, most of it appears to be teachings from the Bible with another name.  But there's more freedom attached to it.  

Perhaps it's also the difference therefore between individual spirituality and community 'group' religion.  Pity one can't have both.  Presumably there are 'islands' of 'group spirituality' that bring people together - such as Findhorn - but mostly they appear to have grown out of the personal growth movement - ???
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill