Uncovering shame

[Gaining Strength]

I'm going to take a stab at responding to your first question.  I believe, based on my own experience and my own understanding, that I have internalized my father's shame that so demoralized and overwhelmed him that he projected it onto any and everything that was his. (part of the difficulty is that nothing is quite so linear but there are twists and turns that make this very convoluted.) As a teenager I used to walk through life apologizing: for being in the way, for interrupting, for no reason at all.  I remember having people I knew tell me to stop apologizing.  At the same time I had a pseudo-confident air.  There were two me's and I only knew the one who thought I deserved the lifestyle I had.  I was unaware of the demeaned and belittled one who was broiling inside and churned up at anything that would cause reaction from my parents - anything that would put me on their radar blip. 

This tormented psychological environment was the perfect host for nurturing my father's judgement.  I lived a "shame or be shamed" life - completely unaware.  It was judge before they can judge you and judge always meant belittle, criticize, condemn.  It was a protective way to exist and I knew no other way.  In some macabre way it is fortunate that my world came crashing down and I was forced to find out what the mechanisms were that so flattened me.  My father's wealth and social prominence kept him from crashing until very recently.  he will never look inside.

This is a long way around to the point that the toxically shamed soul must judge or be judged.  The Narcissist can no longer bear another wound and so the N's option is reduced to "judge."  As toxically shamed humans we carry that judgement in the shame we took on.  My interpretation of those boldened sentences in your post is that one way out of the deeply ingrained shame is to quit judging and that includes those people, those N's who projected all of their shame onto us.  Make no mistake, that by no means suggests that we must interact with them nor see their behavior as anything other than the toxic poison that it is, but they themselves must be viewed as deeply wounded beings just as are we.  It is in releasing our judgement that we are all set free.  I think it is a two-way street but I am not sure.  In other words I think as we release our judgement against others (I do not mean to accept their vile behavior but to see their humanity underneath) then the judgement that we hold against ourselves - aka shame will be released and vice-versa.  I tend to believe that the more I release the judgement against myself (the shame) the more easily I will release my judgement against others.

Is life a minefield where I continually dodge the next stray comment that will send me spiralling into a shame attack? 
Each time I feel the shame triggered I am going to trace it back as far as I can to an early shaming experience and focus on healing that wound.

Thanks for letting me try and work this wretched stuff out.  I confess that I am working on your questions not because I think I have anything to offer you but because it helps me struggle with this last trap in my own life. - Gaining Strength

[cats paw]

Hello, All-

  This fits into the conversation that my best friend and I were having the other day.  She was saying that if she saw a certain people dying of thirst she wouldn't even give them a drop of her you know what to drink.
   I then responded with a bit of embarrassment that if Hitler was in her driveway and spontaneously combusted, and I heard his human screams of pain, I would immediately, unthinkingly act to relieve that pain.  I felt embarrased because that feels like I'm such a wuss.

   However, these dramatic situations are usually not what occur in our everyday life.  There are certain people that I just do not want in my life.  I would not harm them if given the chance, but I don't want them anywhere near me or even my thoughts.

   How about the situations that we are, for whatever circumstance, "forced" to have them in our lives in one way or another?

   For me, I guess the best thing I can come up with is that I still fear things, and is that just a sign-again, that I give away my power?

   It is still difficult for me to differentiate when I am just being fearful and selfish because of the needs that I have, or I am being greedy and selfish because I'm choosing to be "bad" (not digging deep enough, being compassionate enough, etc.)

   It still goes round and round in my head, and these kind of things are usually what can trigger my shame.  I'm really lucky that my H can recognize that sometimes I get a bit quiet, and he asks if i'm experiencing the evil daughter syndrome again.

   It's not just my mother- it's with some other people- but the common denominator is me- my thought, my feelings beliefs, perceptions, choices, etc.  I guess I just have to keep peeling away the layers, realize there are no perfect solutions, it's a journey that we embark upon every day that we walk this earth.

   Again, I am so glad I found this place.  It is a different experience to actually post rather than just lurk and read.

cats paw

[Portia]

Thank you all, this makes for deep reading....

GS

the more I release the judgement against myself (the shame) the more easily I will release my judgement against others.

thanks for saying this so clearly (and that it works vice-versa too). It's good to have words for things that i think I'm experiencing....(work in progress)

Shame is only a feeling for sure, and feelings are there to be felt, fully, and then examined I guess.

[towrite]

Hey, Hops, I also like Bradshaw's book - and you're right, ti does more for identification than for healing.

Axa and Hops, I strongly recommend BETRAYAL BONDS. Patrick Carnes is an addiction expert, but, unlike mnay others, he has cared enough to try to get to the cause(s). And guess what!! Shame is at the bottom - thresulting from many kinds of abuse and many traumatic, shaming, abusive episodes in a child's life. His book is also good on identification of toxic people, but he does give some easy to read tips on self-protection.

One of my faves is about vulnerability - he says being abused creates a deep vulnerability in us (I guess 'cuz we're so desperate for love but also 'cuz the abuser WANTS us vulnerable in order to control us.) Carnes says - I love this - "Keep the handle to your (psychological/emotional) zipper on the INSIDE. That way no one can "unzip" you but you." Isn't that a cool image??

Kate

[towrite]

I had a post written, and decided I actually had more questions than I did comments!   

Here's the big one:  If shame is the basis of a narcissist's behavior, and shame is the basis of ours, what is the difference between a narcissist and a co-narcissist?  and related to that:  Is there anyone that doesn't battle shame? 

CB

CB, I had the same question. Of course, I'm going to try to answer my own question! (That's one definition of insanity.) Anyway, I wonder if those shame-based folks who turn out to be Ns had their N behavior praised or reinforced as children by the Ns they were surrounded by? I wonder if those kiddies were the product of parents who paid so little attention to them, were so extremely self-involved that the kids got away with N behavior? I know in my own life my parents did not have any other suppliers - they both worked so hard to hide their true natures from the outside world that when they came home all hell broke loose if we didn't immediately get out the slippers, pipe, and have dinner on the table.

Maybe that's another partial answer or another question: may the shame-based kids who turned out to be Ns themselves had parents with other suppliers when they were growing up. This would have taken the burden off the child to be the supplier and also freed the child to exhibit N behavior without censorship. Those like me - and I don't believe I'm an N, tho' we all have a few N charateristics, don't we? - whose parents hid from outsiders and carried on a veritable supply tug-of-war at home, were so focused on the sources of supply in that house that the kids could not possibly have acted in an N way b/c (1) it would have been an affront to the parents, (2) the parents would have terrified the kids would behave that way outside and ruin their elaborate charade, and (3) N behavior would not have been tolerated b/c Ns can't and don't supply other Ns. Or do they?

Sorry I didn't express my thoughts more clearly. I am ruminating.

Kate

[teartracks]

Hi CB, Edit in:  Hi axa,  Well, I said my noodler is out of whack.  See what I mean!

I like this thread very much because I have noodled the same questions over and over.  I'm  like a cat chasing its tail  .  My noodler is out of whack today, so I can't make a comment, but I'm reading everything...thanks to you and the others for your shared  insight. 

tt

[Stormchild]

In the book Verbal Abuse, she says that the difference between kids who grow up to be verbally abusive (she doesnt identify them as N's, but they seem to be), and kids who grow up to take verbal abuse, is the presence or absence of a non-N mentor.

I was struck by that when I read it, and it does fit in the case of my NH and I, from what I can tell.  I had a grandmother who was the voice of sanity in my growing up years.  She looked at what got dished out and called it what it was, although she didnt actually intervene.  And she loved me unconditionally.  My NH got both abuse and admiration from the same folks--and his greatest anger as an adult was the fact that everyone else looked the other way.  That seems to fit--but I don't know for sure. 

My biggest questions revolve around what, if any difference is there between myself and an N?  I feel as though, in the beginning of my marriage, we were jockeying for the position of entitled and entitler (sorry, just being honest here!  )  I remember distinctly and clearly that I realized that if one of us wasnt a grown up our kids were doomed.  I decided to be the grown up.  I wondered what would have happened if he had decided to be a grown up.

This is absolutely brilliant.... I'm at a total loss for words... you have totally figured it out.

The other thing I'm wondering about is, if we're all shame based and we all do things to run from the shame--is the real difference between us and N's, the damage we do to those around us?

Opportunity and values. If we act out of a desire to preserve our image more than our loved ones, if our first thought is always about how we look and only later - if at all - about how they feel, well then... on those occasions, at least, we're just as N as any of the people we criticize... aren't we.

Do enablers do less damage?

Who did the most damage? Cho Seung-Hui or the idiots who sold guns to an obviously unbalanced young man*? They're two halves of one process. Ns without enablers would be a lot less toxic, and the damage they do would be much more limited. Stop the enabling [stop the denial, the excuses, the cleaning up after them, the misplaced pity-based defending of them], and you allow the person to face the true consequences of his or her behavior... a few dozen brick walls will eventually stop even a determined N. But refusing to enable is like true democracy, or true Christianity - it's talked about a great deal, but almost never tried.

Is the difference actually a personality difference in how we deal with our shame?  Can I be really, really transparent and say that there is a certain amount of mileage that I got out of being a martyr?  Of suffering for Jesus?

Yes, yes and yes...

Sheesh. 

I guess I am asking some basic questions about the designation Narcissist.  Not to make excuses for the N's in my life, but to quit making excuses for myself and other "non-N's".  This goes back to what GS was saying:

I think as we release our judgement against others (I do not mean to accept their vile behavior but to see their humanity underneath) then the judgement that we hold against ourselves - aka shame will be released and vice-versa.  I tend to believe that the more I release the judgement against myself (the shame) the more easily I will release my judgement against others.

I am wondering if my freedom from shame is to see where I am narcissistic and recognize that it is a human condition and not a classification of a kind of mental disorder.  NOT that it is acceptable, NOT that it should be ignored, nor enabled, nor excused.  NOT that I should continue to put up with unacceptable N behavior--verbal abuse, putdowns, belittling and worse. 

As a matter of fact, I can quit doing a quick (or long, agonizing) mental inventory of everyone I meet, trying to decide if they are safe.  Is he/she safe? the answer is "no" and also "yes".  Everyone (including me) is capable of N behavior.  If I attempt to set boundaries and that is not respected, then that person is someone that I don't want to proceed further into relationship with (if I ignore my own boundaries, then I will eventually be able to define the other person as an N!).  If I am confident that I can look at each person and evaluate what's going on--and I am confident that I am capable of setting boundaries and enforcing them--then I can quit walking around scared of the N behind every bush!

And I can quit hiding in shame from the narcissism in my heart.  I can look at it and know that it doesnt define me, it is just an ugly part of me that needs to be dealt with.  If it doesnt define me, then it can't shame me. 

Anyway, I have a lot of ideas that I'm thinking through, but I'll bet I have to table them for awhile.  Tomorrow is my first day of work!!!! And I have four more days this week to work, and school, and everything.  But I wanted to write all this down to you all and see if you think any of it makes sense and what your thoughts are.

Much love to you all,

CB

CB: what it all boils down to: There, but for the grace of God, goes every one of us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Edit in: For the record - I'm not anti gun; I'm anti selling guns to unbalanced young men... there's a big difference.

[mudpuppy]

CB,

I am wondering if my freedom from shame is to see where I am narcissistic and recognize that it is a human condition and not a classification of a kind of mental disorder

It's a bad thing to dehumanize someone with an inappropriate label but it is as least as bad to deny that a very real, pervasive and apparently incurable personality disorder called NPD exists, if that's what you're implying.
It does exist and it bears about the same relationship to common garden variety selfish acts by normal people as my brain does to Einstein's; from the outside it looks quite similar, but its operation is different not just in degree but in kind.

In many ways people with NPD of course are human, and they certainly are equal in God's eyes, but they do lack some of the fundamental things that we recognize as human; empathy being the primary one. That is a very, very large piece of humanity to be missing from anyone and still expect humane behavior from them. And of course humane behavior is precisely what they seem incapable of.

mud

[Stormchild]

I agree with you, too, mud.

I think it is entirely possible to choose to become less than human. Transiently or even permanently.

I am over 50, and I have seen this happen many times. I've actually been on the spot and seen the choice being made, on a few occasions.

From that I can tell you... it chills you to the bone to see how someone's face changes just before they do the spiteful, vicious, inhumane thing you would not have thought them ever capable of, five seconds before.

[isittoolate]

I have read the book about the Emotionally Abusive Relationship and I then found this site that says pretty well the whole thing. I printed each page that I wanted

Izzy

http://www.geocities.com/misogynon/

Each of those Yellow boxes is another Page!!!

[CB123]

No, Mud--I'm not denying NPD exists.  I think I am just thinking about what it means.  There's being a psychopath and there's garden-variety selfishness.  Is NPD somewhere in between?

I am thinking about being shame based, and the things we do to avoid feeling shame.  I'm thinking about the control issues we all have and which ones ruin other people's lives-- and which one's ruin our own. 

Just thinking.

CB

[Gaining Strength]

Until I found Voicelessness the only person I found who would listen to me talk about the deepest shaming parts of me was my therapist - 1 hour a week unless there was something else on my agenda.  I wake each morning overwhelmed by shame.  Until recent years I didn't have a name for it.  In recent years I have processed layers and layers and layers of shame each time I discover another layer it takes quite some time before I recognize the darkness for what it is - shame.

Shame has shackled my life in so many wretched ways.  This discussion has come at a time for me that was ripe for it.  I have begun to feel the cracking of the iceburg - the massive iceburg.  I suspect it will be a lengthy process.

As I lay in bed this morning I had images of my father dance through my head.  Each time I saw flashes of his image I shrank into a shame bound ball.  His toxicity is boundless - I have claimed it all my life. 

In recent days  I have been able to put the name shame to so much that I experience.  I am able to put the name shame to every incidence of paralysis.  This is so helpful.  I believe without waiver that I will break through this and so I am able to experience the shame without recrimination.  Up until this day each and every time I experienced shame I becamed shamed because of the shame - spiralling down in a torrent.  This time, this discussion has helped me stop that spiral.  Now I am satisfied that in naming the shame I will, in time, be able to break this cycle.  I know the source and I know it is not me.  I believe that naming it each and every time I experience it will begin to break the cycle and I do not expect to be able to act, to break free of the paralysis just yet but that will come and when it does it will come in like a storm.  But naming it has become for me the same as healing it.  For the first time in my life I am able to look it in the face without shrinking back in even more shaming.  That is the power of naming.

Now I can go out in the world and know that part of my rejection, part of my struggle is shame.  It is a dread disease that was put on me as a child by my shamed and shaming parents.  Once shamed my community heaped it on me as well.  Once shamed I acted out in shame and all the parts of shaming that were put on me became me.  Today I am able to name them and though naming does not completely shed them it does loosen the binds and in time, in a short time, these parts of shame will fall like scales.

[axa]

Gs

Uplifting, inspiring and grateful that we found a name for what has been binding us for so long

axa

[Overcomer]

gs DITTO!  You said it so well-and even if your parents are not there to heap our internal parents are!  Shame on you!  What a terrible legacy they laid on us!  Now my mom is trying to diagnose me so  she can figure out why I act the way I do-look in the mirror my friend!

[teartracks]

GS,

Your entire #32 post is soooooo inspiring.  I'm thrilled at the progress you're experiencing.  I hope all of those wounded by shame are following your progress and find encouragement. 

I so enjoyed your photo a few weeks ago.  As I write this I'm picturing you and somehow or other the photo deepens the kinship I feel with you.

My nemesis is, or was ridicule.  I honestly don't know if I've purged that part of my woundedness completely.  I think I'll go back and put the word ridicule in all the places where you use shame.  Do you think that has merit?  Thank you so much for the beautiful way you write and the skill with which you explain your thoughts.

Beautiful!

tt