A Story and a Few Words of Encouragement

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Three months ago, my beloved 14 ˝ year old Golden Retriever, W., died of kidney failure.  W. was my first dog, and both my wife and daughter would complain, half-joking, that I loved him more than them.  W. slept at the foot of the bed:  every night I would give him a kiss on the snout, and depending upon how well he was feeling, he would either lick my hands or give me an air kiss or two.  When he had had a particularly good day, he would tuck my fingers between his gums and the side of his mouth.  

When W. died I felt both grief and panic.  The grief was, relatively speaking, easy.  I would cry a few times a day, share stories with my family and friends, talk to my patients who spent time with him on the porch before or after sessions—or wave to him if they felt too shy (voiceless?) to intrude.  The hard part was the panic.  To the readers of this forum, the panic is probably easy to explain and all too familiar.  If W. is not there, he is no longer real, and if he is no longer real, what was the point of his existing in the first place, and thus, what was the point of my existence?  I was reminded again what I have often experienced and what my patients tell me (what the Tom Hanks character discovers in the movie “Castaway”):  if you are all alone, nothing is real.  Although my rational brain counter argued, these feelings plagued me for weeks.

About a month ago, I had a dream W. was at the foot of the bed.  I knew he was dead, but still he was there.  I could get up, give him a kiss on the snout, feel his fur on my lips, receive some licks, experience his pleasure—all of which I did, still knowing he was dead.  In the morning I woke up and felt, for the first time in months, relief and calm.  W. wasn’t in his usual spot, but I had finally re-found him inside of myself.

I write this because I want to encourage people to keep posting.  As you know not everyone on this board will agree or even hear.  There will be arguments, fights--and panic when the person/people you want most to listen, can’t or won’t.  But if you keep at it, honestly, genuinely, and vulnerably, you will find your way into, at least, some of the hearts on this board (mine included), and you will be a little less alone.

Richard

[Survivor]

Dr. Grossman,

Thank you so much for the touching story.  My father died two months ago and I find myself having the same feelings.  I still cry a few times a week   and the grief is lessening with each "good cry".  You put exactly how I'm feeling into words that I could not express.  You have helped me more than you will know.

Thanks so much for caring for all of us here on the board . . . finding people who have been in the same situations has helped me tremendously!

Survivor

[Anonymous]

I write this because I want to encourage people to keep posting.  As you know not everyone on this board will agree or even hear.  There will be arguments, fights--and panic when the person/people you want most to listen, can’t or won’t.  But if you keep at it, honestly, genuinely, and vulnerably, you will find your way into, at least, some of the hearts on this board (mine included), and you will be a little less alone.

Richard

It was a beautiful story that you shared with us about your dog. Richard, this also does show me a compassionate side, your human face. That you have a heart, that you cry. A man crying is obviously compassionate and gentle. But I don't get how this relates to your locking the 4 threads.

Do you feel the need to remove any possible image you've created of a heavy handed, male authoritarian, chauvinist? Re- the type Alice Miller talks about. Is this your feifdom? Are you Lord? Do you rule with an iron fist? Or are you sloppy, allowing the situation to get to the point that it did? People's emotions getting stretched the limit.

Part of me thinks that you closing these threads was "Well done."

The thing had escalated to the point that I was beginning to worry about the spouses and children of those fighting. People off balance, you would know, often take it out on their nearest and dearest.

But why did you wait so long? Then your action was somewhat like 'coitus interruptus'. CHOP! No more. And I geet such an overwhelming feeling that you doing this has CREATED voicelessness.

PLUS, you gave no warning beforehand of what you were going to do. You only gave one warning. You warned guest that would delete guests post. So you do do this, warn I mean.

You didn't suggest they take it to PM, warn, or ask them to do anything, like tone it down, take time out. You decided unilaterally, for them, for everybody. This seems so male authoritarian to me. "Girl's, go to your room." "Yes Dad!"

Leading up to this, did you intervene and moderate at any time?

You just seemed to let these things go on, and on, and on.

I apologise if I'm wrong about you Richard, but I think you should have at least given warning about what you intended to do, well before you did it. Giving them the chance to settle down and take it in a different direction. Hard Call? Maybe, but it's got me wondering? Hey, maybe they did take to PM, maybe that's where everybody is.      

I think I would hate to be one of those people now. I think I'd feel completely humiliated and silenced.        

You seem to adopt the approach in most cases of conflict of sitting back and watching it. And that these problems usually sort themselves out. If this is true, then there seems to me to be another side of this power that you hold. You have the power of intervention at any time. Why leave it go so long, when people are losing it, and well into hysteria to give it 'Then chop!'

I hope I haven't offended you Richard. I know what it's like to lose a beloved family pet. I'm glad you found him/her again in your heart. This post was not intended in any way to trivialise your story or your pain, I assure you.

I just wanted to express my confused thoughts about you at the moment, and let you know that I think I have developed some feelings of mistrust about you after this event.

I hope that's all it is, and I'm just confused at the moment about all this. So I open myself up here to you and all, criticise away. I wanted to open this up for discussion, and I just hope    that if you or others want or feel the need to defend you Richard and your actions, please take note of the fact that although I post as guest I too am a fellow human being with feelings. Also I'm just asking questions and sharing with you all my concerns about what is happening.

Concerned Guest

[lynn]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the board and for the message.  I'm sorry about your friend/dog.  Losing a devoted, trusted and loyal friend like W is so hard.

I agree with your comments about panic being one of the more difficult emotions to deal with.  It feels so open ended.  So over the edge.  The out of control nature of panic is unfamiliar and unsettling.  It feels like you might enter no-mans-land and never return. In another thread there was a discussion about feeling sad and being okay with it.  It is more difficult to feel panic and be okay with it.  The only thing I know to do is to slow down my mind (with reading, with lights on).  To attempt to change the nature of my thoughts.  

I don't know if that is the healthiest option, but sometimes it works.  I have not had the courage to stay with the panic and let it happen.

Thanks again for the board and the encouragement to post.  Even here I sometimes feel frightened to post my thoughts.  Not yet enough self-confidence in my thoughts.  But it is great to have a place to try to communicate my thoughts and to recieve  thoughtful responses.

lynn

[phoenix]

bye

[surf14]

HI Guest,

I just wanted  to comment that I think you are making Rchard's decision to lock the threads he locked too complicated.  When things are getting out of control and they certainly were here, I think its good sense to impose a time out.  It has nothing to do with chauvenism or patriarchy; its the responsibility of the moderator of the board to keep things "safe "for all.  Please if we could try to refrain from stirring up more discord and for now lets just enjoy the peace and regroup.

Surf

[Tokyojim]

Dear Guest,

I think that you are making things unnecessarily complicated.

I will keep my comment simple and stop.

Relax!

[rosencrantz]

I think those last two posts were far more inflammatory than that of Concerned Guest who raised a number of valid points.  Some I agreed with and some I didn't.  I was prepared to respond with thoughtfulness in return.  But not while there are people so anxious to put a blanket on others to muffle them and to use put downs to do so. (Relax! indeed!!!)

The points Concerned Guest raised were about voicelessness and  feelings.

I'm just confused at the moment about all this. So I open myself up here to you,

I want to encourage people to keep posting...if you keep at it, honestly, genuinely, and vulnerably...you will be a little less alone.

Seems to me that Concerned Guest did what RG wanted.  The last two posters did a 'you are' job on concerned guest which is a put down and a distancer and makes a lot of assumptions about that person.  

RG Your words affected me greatly - I've been sobbing on and off for the past 16 hours but I'm not posting to explore 'why' when I feel so vulnerable and only 'some' thoughts and feelings are acceptable.  People who define which thoughts and feelings are acceptable make others voiceless.

Please if we could try to refrain from stirring up more discord and for now lets just enjoy the peace and regroup.

You have indicated what you want but, rather than expressing it in terms of your wants and feelings - and looking at the reasons why - (like CG appeared to do) - you have presented it as a requirement imposed on everyone else.  You make it so that anyone who wishes to discuss feelings about this issue is defined as 'stirring up discord'.    I'm not that shocked - it happens a lot.

1.  For me, these two posts spoilt all the good, kind feelings that had been expressed hitherto in this thread.

2.  Putting a blanket on things is what allows persecutors to have their insidious way. Maybe you feel it keeps you safe from the persecutor - but it doesn't deal with the pain or the problem.

3.  Expressing feelings about how one feels about something allows closure.  It's not repeating the incident all over again.

Surf, I'm going to front up to you on this one - I experience you as consistently trying to smother/put a blanket over my feelings.  You are in good company as my husband and my father have a preference for that kind of response, too.  Lots of people do.  I did signal this to you before but I hid it rather as I didn't want to be rejecting but I don't think you noticed.  I would like you not to do it to me again.  Personally, I would like you not to do that to other people either.  Personally, I don't think it's healthy.  Personally, I'd like you to recognise that you do that.  But that's just me.

Tokyojim, you have a need for people to 'stop'.  You like that word.  Stop. Twice you put a stop AFTER a post of mine.  The way you presented it was good for me - and totally inflammatory for the other party, making them feel so voiceless that they had to shout to be heard.  Think about it.  Think about the effect you had.  That's only my opinion.  But, personally, I'd like you to stop making people stop and look at what your need is instead.

Concerned Guest - I think I recognise your voice.  If you are who I think you are - I have been astounded that you have such a calm measured and gentle voice after having suffered so much in your childhood.

Out of MY need, I want to say how genuine I thought your post was.  You wre honest and kind.  You said you felt confused and you demonstrated that confusion in your post.  Expressing confusion means you express conflicting opinions or thoughts.  People will pick on one side or the other to get their own feelings out and put you down.  Please don't be hurt or shut up by them.  You probably aren't - I'm expressing my own need here!!!  

I also want to say 'Thank you, Concerned Guest - from one of those most affected by this.  The confusion and conflicting thoughts and opinions you expressed helped me understand some of my feelings.  You put words to feelings.  That always helps me enormously.  You expressed some things I hadn't thought of, some of which I don't agree with - but I support totally your right to express whatever comes from the heart.  The things I don't necessarily agree with are still interesting and worth picking over to see how they might fit in and lead to a better understanding.  Just now I wouldn't have had the courage to even attempt putting into writing the things you shared.  I am very grateful."

I'm also aware that I'm coming in between two parties here - the last two posts and Concerned Guest - before CG gets too angry or hurt.  So I'm doing it too!!!  Coming from my own childhood habits, rescuing.  Drawing fire.  Inviting you to pick on me rather than CG.

Now that's the kind of thing to want to stop!!!!!  We need to stop 'stopping' and stop putting blankets over things and stop getting in the line of fire!!  

But I'm still mad that someone who opened themselves up to us all got put downs and shut up. (Now that IS about projection!!)

R

[Tokyojim]

I probably should have articulated my thoughts better.

First, my comments are not directed toward any person with intention to badger, quiet, stifle or inhibit.

By "stop" I meant to cease the convoluted debates over specific meanings and intentions because that does not seem to lead anywhere except to more and more debates.

Maybe I was under a false impression (or just wish-fullfilling), but I thought that this forum was to support one another and get ideas.  It does not seem fruitful to debate and attack among ourselves.  Most people on this forum are struggling with some relation with NPD.  They have enough of that in their lives already.

To explain "stop," I would hope to see our mutual support and encouragement and to cease attacks that become convoluted.  Lastly, please do not accuse me of having some "issue."  That is simply an attack in disguise, a form of a put-down.  If I have an "issue" (I hate psychobabble), I will try to mention it.  If others feel I have (or another has) an issue, I think it would be best to simply question the person without a spiteful or aggressive tone.

[Tokyojim]

Sorry, I used the wrong word.  I should not have written "issue."  I should have written "need."  (Same thing, anyway.......)

[rosencrantz]

I can understand why you used the word aggressive but I think there's a better word (like assertive and upfront and telling it like I see it) but not the word spiteful.

I thought that this forum was to support one another and get ideas.

I gave you an idea.   I notice you use the word 'stop' a lot and you seem to want to 'stop' discussion.  I was wondering where it came from, what motivated you?  If you want to share your feelings, I'll support you if you want me to.  

We can't understand other people until we understand what motivates us.  Why we do the things we do.  Why we say the things we say.

my comments are not directed toward any person with intention to badger, quiet, stifle or inhibit

If that is true, please could you explain what you intended your original comments (relax, you are too complicated, in contrast to you I will keep my comments simple) to achieve, and who they were (not) directed at, so that I can better understand.

We only have words to communicate with here.  

http://www.yalom.com/gifttow5.html

I'm writing in a hurry as I have to go but I'm trying to find a better way.

R

[Tokyojim]

It borderlines on the unbelieveable and incredible - How you get lost in your psychobabble and rhetoric.  Cannot see the forest for the trees and/or find multiple meanings at simple and direct statements.

[Tokyojim]

You wrote:

I gave you an idea.   I notice you use the word 'stop' a lot and you seem to want to 'stop' discussion.  I was wondering where it came from, what motivated you?  If you want to share your feelings, I'll support you if you want me to.  

We can't understand other people until we understand what motivates us.  Why we do the things we do.  Why we say the things we say.


I believe that I responded to that twice already.  My "feelings" are very simple, and probably do not have anything to do with some kinds of "issues" or "needs."  I simply saw a pattern of bickering among the members.  (I am afraid that you will find issue with the word "bickering" and maybe even "afraid.")

I used to be a counselor at a middle school.  The 12-13 year olds would get upset at one another an say something like "Ann told Nancy that Bill said that I told John A, B and C, and when Nancy talked to Steve, he told Bill that I said D, E and F, but really it was Joe that said G, H and I."  And on and on.  That ALWAYS lead nowhere until the parties just spoke from the heart without trying to be right or wrong.  I was not responding to particulars of each sentence or to particular people, but rather to the patterns as I saw them.

It is also like seeing someone who has been divorced 5 or 6 times.  He will get into the details and circumstances of each situation.  Stepping back, it is easy to see a pattern.  

I WAS SAYING "STOP" TO THAT!

GET IT?

[Tokyojim]

Oh, please don't say I have "anger" issues..... (I can see that coming....)

[rosencrantz]

Good grief - you've come back every hour to post - have you been missing me?  Are you trying to taunt me into giving you something else to vent about???  

I wouldn't like to let you down.   'Issues'!!!?????  You're the only one using psychobabble here.

And you have absolutely no idea what it does to your mind to be brought up by someone suffering with a personality disorder.  Otherwise you'd understand what's going on here and YOU wouldn't be so spiteful.

Really, really stupid.

Listen and learn.

R