Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > What Helps?
‘Happiness’, delusion, Zen & books
Bella_French:
Hi Portia!
I am new here, but I wanted to comment on your thought-provoking post.
I believe what you mentioned about depression is supported by a lot of factual evidence. My partner studied psych at university, and he was taught that depressed people tend to have a very accurate assessment of themselves and of their environment (relatively speaking).
I think depression and pessimism are different entities too. Depression can hit even the most positive of people. But I agree that although self-delusion is a not a formula for happiness, it can fascilitate it. What could be better than believing in your fairy god mother, Santa Claus, and the sweet after-life? Or that you are superior and more capable than everyone else?
I think what the studies show is that depressed people do not possess self-delusion as defense mechanism.
Having said all that, I would say that any book about Zen philosophy would be a good read. Some of it will come across as unsubstantiated conjecture, but a lot of it describes useful tools for experiencing life in the moment...breathing, hearing sounds, experiencing your emotional reality HERE and not the past. I have read that Zen practices have been a great tool for healing depresssion in some people. Hopefully not just because they decided to forfeit reality!
Portia:
Thanks for all your replies.
Certain Hope, yes it was old news to me and I was doubting whether to lay out any cash on books that sort of make Zen easy to the Western eye (that’s my superficial feeling), I guess I was looking for any leads on that author, being too lazy to make up my own mind at that point! (or perhaps doubting my gut reaction…)
--- Quote ---In her view, everyone else is in denial and/or faking it... she's the only one who sees the world/life/people for what they really are. To me, that's not being a realist... it's simply having made the decision to give up on hope.
--- End quote ---
Yes it seems so and it seems to be absolutist too: that she’s deciding to retreat inside her own prison because it’s safer there, where nobody can question her belief perhaps? Depression is a safe prison.
Yes a person can be unhappy and still understand the value of life, and that unhappiness proves existence itself! Celebrate all feelings eh, not just the ‘good’ ones.
--- Quote ---"We each create our own reality" - and I think, well, yeah - we could take that approach - if we wanted to be just like N.
--- End quote ---
I think we do though, as your friend is creating her own reality? I guess it depends on the reality we choose? Sam V’s reality I guess is exceptional; many Ns realities seem in constant danger of collapse.
--- Quote ---A great deal of knowledge and assurance come only by revelation.
--- End quote ---
It seems that way to me, although what revelation is….? ‘When the student is ready, the teacher will appear’ --- ? I wonder if revelation is a change in the way we are able to perceive something. I don’t know.
I don’t think Zen is about avoiding being human, more about understanding and being aware of what it is to be human and becoming…. mmm…. fully immersed in life without attachment to it. Trying to find my own words there.
Hops, Zen crossed with Peale? I can see that! How about Zen crossed with Albert Ellis? The big truth eh: um, anger is a great slave but a crap master I think, so far. That’s a teeny truth for me.
Thanks Moon. Thank you.
Bella French, hello and thank you.
--- Quote ---I think depression and pessimism are different entities too.
--- End quote ---
This makes a lot of sense to me and explains something too. I’ve been depressed but probably never pessimistic, interesting. I wonder what makes people pessimistic or optimistic and is that changeable? I don’t know.
CB, no I’m not afraid of reading anything, I just don’t like parting with cash! It was that trite probably. I doubt that reading anything would influence me to believe a lie, unless under duress, more likely that I walk about in a perpetual state of ‘suspended belief’ as I think of it. Thinking on that, it’s not so much I want to read people whose beliefs are different to mine…..it’s more that my beliefs are so scant (in some areas) that to challenge them would be to immerse myself in ‘pretending to believe’ in a belief system (does that make any sense?).
When I said “deliberately entering a realm of ‘kidding myself’” I meant... deliberately submitting my suspended belief (or disbelief) – scepticism perhaps - to a belief-system: i.e. pretending to believe to get the idea. I have a very hard time pretending to believe! (I mean, I will not delude myself if I can help it and that's a potential trap in itself, is it a common one....probably I guess.)
There’s a top question I love to be asked and that’s “how do you know?” because most often, I don’t know anything. And strangely, re: the hardness of life, I don’t really see/feel the way I am, to be hard/difficult; the opposite more so: to grab a belief and immerse myself would be very hard…….so………that would be the challenge. If I could be motivated enough, but I’m not. I guess part of me is looking for a tribe to join and the other parts are saying, why limit anything to anything? Which may be a bit Zen at the end of it all. It seems half the time we reject being labelled, the other half we desire the label, the group, which is okay too. Kind of ties in with deception and the need to belong and conform, to an extent.
Can I belong to a group of non-conformists? (that’s an old joke)
Thanks again all, it helps. :D
Hopalong:
Hiya, P:
Library should have: Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman (he knows this subject)
I think it has something to do with musical theater.
Hops
Sela:
Hiya all:
I believe happiness is a choice.
We can choose to focus on whatever we want to focus on (or need to focus on).
We can stop, in between some of the tougher stuff and remind ourselves to smile.....to relax ......to enjoy...take a break from suffering.....remember the good stuff that still exists in our lives and in our world....at this moment.
I think happiness can be achieved by anyone depending on desire and effort (like most goals). Consistent small steps will lead one to that goal.
Not saying that when we are in the depths of despair we will be happy. Not at all. Only that we can choose to be happy the rest of the time or most of the time or more of the time. Maybe it helps us recover from grief?
The old glass half empty/half full thingy. What if you believe the glass can be totally full? But you have to do the pouring. It's ok to believe that, if you want to and to start adding drops to your own cup!
Maybe happiness comes when we notice the good, the nice, the fun, the positive, the beautiful? If we don't notice, how can we ever be happy? And don't we choose to notice or not to?
I say........ do what makes you happy, if it doesn't hurt anyone else. Think of it as delusion or think of it as a choice. Whatever. :roll: How much does it matter? If you want to be happy you can be!
Embrace Zen or Mother Earth or The power of the Sun, the Moon, the Stars, water, fire and/or wind or God Himself! But embrace something and hold onto it and rely on it and look up to it and appreciate it and enjoy it and draw strength from it because it will do you good, I bet! It will help you on your way.
I think we delude ourselves when we believe there is no happiness and that the truth is negative and pessimistic. We miss a lot, if that's what we base our attitude on. A lot of good stuff.
Hey! This sounds like preaching! Ok. Stepping down from pulpit.
:D Sela
PS: Hey P!
--- Quote --- I do feel as though I’m deliberately entering a realm of ‘kidding myself’.
--- End quote ---
Or might you be exiting one of hopelessness training?
--- Quote --- If healthy is deluded, do I want to be happy/healthy? (as defined by other people?)
I’m not so sure! I grew up in a house of lies, so I’ve pursued ‘truth’ or ‘reality’, one way or another.
--- End quote ---
Oh you do make a good argument!! If unhealthy is aware (as defined by yourself) are you sure you want to be there alone and unhappy? You don't live in the house of lies anymore and your pursuit of the truth and reality are a big step away from there. Was it a happy place? That house? Maybe that was part of the lie too? Maybe there is such a thing as a happy place but they couldn't/wouldn't/didn't lead you there or teach you how to go there? Maybe that's part of what needs pursuing? (ain't I a beggar!!)
--- Quote ---A question of Zen: if I lose all my preferences, if I lose all sense of desire, black/white and so on: how do I make any decisions in life?
--- End quote ---
Have faith in yourself! You've probably read thousands of books in your life and not one of them (I bet) has caused you to go against your own instincts. If it doesn't sound/feel/think right.....you'll probably not accept it!
If you wanna read it, read it. I imagine you'll question/examine/think about it and keep what helps you. I bet you will!
Bella_French:
--- Quote from: Portia on June 08, 2007, 08:24:53 AM ---
I think depression and pessimism are different entities too.
This makes a lot of sense to me and explains something too. I’ve been depressed but probably never pessimistic, interesting. I wonder what makes people pessimistic or optimistic and is that changeable? I don’t know.
--- End quote ---
Yes I think this is changable, Portia. Norman vincent Peale convinced me that it is not only changable, but it really comes down to making the decision to be optomistic rather than pessimistic, and then discipling onself to make a habit out of it.
And I agree that you can be depressed, in pain, and suffering, and yet still feel optomistic that life is still worth living and that positive changes will come about(whether by your own efforts, or something external).
I've often felt that way, and it amazes me just how often life will throw you a lifeline when you are open to catching it. I think this is part of what the `postive thinking' types of literature mean when they endorse its benefits.
X Belinda
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