Hello. I'm new here

[redginger]

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[James73]

Hi red welcome to the board, im sorry for your loss of your daughter that is something a person should never have to endure, my thoughts and paryers go out to you. regarding your other daughter It seems that she has become an N through learning from her father and through the result of N abuse from her father. The fact that shes come out and said she is an N and that she is getting therapy for it is amazing and encouraging as N's by nature do not admit that they have any faults, and if they do admit faults its usually just to gain praise and Narcissistic supply through false modesty rather than out of any real humility/responsibility. That she has had 6 years therapy with no improvment is sadly unsurprising as most therapists will have a nigh on impossible task of drawing out the scared little child buried within the N's false persona. It may need a multi pronged approach perhaps, more than one therapist or maybe a more invasive treatment perhaps. Im not sure if regression or hypnosis therpay would help although it might cuase more damage than it cured. There will be a lot of research you can do on the subject though and Im sure there are N's who have recovered who have shared their experiences/story either on the net or in a book so all is not lost by any means, where there is a will there is a way.
I wish you luck and hope this board can provide you with some relief
James

[Ami]

I am very reluctant to reply but I will give you my honest answer and reaction. I want to say, first, that it could be "colored" by my relationship with my own mother..
 I could see my mother writing a post like this.
   If you have two very deeply disturbed daughters, All I hear you asking is,"How do you not feel guilt?."That is something my mother would ask. She could recount a similar" life story" and then ask that question.
  I hear you putting alot of blame on the boyfriend, the father and the sister. Where were you in the drama. You are the mother. Perhaps, you need to "repent" to your daughter rather than see her as the N or the enemy.
  If your two daughters are in so ,very much pain--- I would think that you would need to do a lot of soul searching to see your part in it.
  You still have one daughter left. I would be reluctant to put a label on her so fast. Maybe, she is an N. Even in that case, you as a mother could give her a bigger gift of love and repentance than blame.Maybe,she is too far gone. In any case, I think that you need to address your part in it, rather than be concerned how not to feel guilty,primarily
 I am sorry if I was "hard".  I,myself, want honest opinions, even if they hurt. Maybe, other people will feel totally differently                                              Ami

[James73]

Yes I think Ami is right too, perhaps you need to address your own part in your daughters life to help her unravel her own problems. you may have inadvertently contributed towards her Narcissism or perhaps been too submissive to her father and wasnt there to protect her from him when she needed you, either way your assistance will be crucial in her recovery, family is about support and a parent's role in that support is vital. I doubt this path will be easy for either of you but as she makes your life hell and she is in a living hell as all N's are then perhaps you should both pull your resources to uncover the truths of your relationship with each other and then move on to the relationship that she had with her father and sister?

[debkor]

Red,

I am so very sorry. So very tragic. I cannot imagine.  I have 3 children two older, college age.  I don't know what to say.
My heart became very heavy and sunk to my stomach when I read your post.  My heart goes out to you and yours.

What can we do to help you?  Do you need to just rant, scream, cry.?  We will listen. 

I have not experienced this myself but I did have a family member come home to find her husband the same as your child.
There was a drinking problem also.

There was nothing she could have done anymore then she already had.  He didn't want to be here. There was no indication that it was going to happen either.  They thought he was getting better.

Again I am so very sorry.

Deb

[sally]

As I was writing this, redginger removed her message, but I'llpost anyway in case she reads it.

Dear redginger,

 I am so sorry for your loss.  Loosing a child is the worse loss a person could have.  My condolences to you.

I hope you and your family are doing grief counseling because this cam help.

I agree with what Ami and James said, but, I want to frame it differently.

I’ve been doing a lot of healing and recovery work, reading books and listening to tapes by psychologists such as John Bradshaw, Alice Miller, Murray Bowen and Scott Peck. If you are interested, here are some web sites:

johnbradshaw.com
alice-miller.com
http://www.thebowencenter.org/pages/theory.html
http://www.mscottpeck.com/index.html

I’ve also read many books on dysfunctional families by other psychologists.

What I have found is that the family is a “system” and most people are unconscious of the roles they play and expect other family members to play in the “family system”.

So, in your “family of origin”  (FOO) (meaning you, your parents and siblings) had a family system and all the “bad stuff” you learned in your FOO you probably passed on to your kids, but you did this unconsciously because that’s how you were raised.  Also, your parents probably passed on to you and your siblings “bad stuff” because that’s how they were raised, but they also did this unconsciously.

So, our parents passed “bad stuff” onto us and we pass “bad stuff”  on to our kids, but we do this unconsciously.  And, because we do it unconsciously, no one is to blame, for we know not what we do.

However, once we get a “wake up call”  showing us that things are not right ( like your poor beloved daughter), then, we have a CHOICE to take responsibility and become CONSCIOUS of the “bad stuff” which our parents passed onto us and which we pass on to our kids.

So, becoming conscious is NOT about blame (because we did not consciously know that we did something wrong, we did what we were taught by our parents).  However, once we are faced with the “wake up call”, we have to make a choice to either correct ourselves or ignore our prior unconscious mistakes and live the rest of our lives in denial.

So, when Ami and James say that you must look at how you participated in your children’s lives (and death), they , I think, mean that you now have a CHOICE of either becoming AWARE of your previously unconscious participation on the “bad stuff” of your family system OR, you can view the “wake up call” as a means to place blame on you.

Redginger, making the choice to become conscious is very difficult, very painful and scary.  But, for many of us here, we would rather live in truth  than denial.

If you choose to take the “road less traveled” to consciousness, you may be able to have a better relationship with your “Narcissistic” daughter and help her.

I’m sorry if I have hurt you and I wish you all the best.

Love,Sally

[sally]

Dear Ami and James,

I apologize to you both if it came across that I was paraphrasing what you said.  I didn't mean to do that.

Also, redginger, I want to acknowledge your pain.  I cannot imagine what you must be feeling.  I wish you healing and I hope you will come back.

Love,
Sally

[redginger]

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[confused2]

I am very sorry Red, about your daughter. My heart goes out to you. Thanks for your response to my post today. You really made me think about my behavior. (Obsessesion of my XN)

You will rec'v comfort here. I am new also. Everyone has been so kind, and understanding. Whatever it is that you feel on any given day, just post. Post and read. You will feel better.

I care, I really care that you hurt. Just remember, you are not alone on this board.

Sweetgrass

[sally]

Dear Red,

I'm so happy you've come back.  I'm sorry for not giving you the support and understanding you deserve.

You have so much on your plate.  You're right, first thing is to deal with your beloved daughter's death.  I hope you have an understanding and supportive therapist and tbhat you are in a suicide support group.  I think that being in a support group with others that have been effected by suicide could help you.

I really cannot image the pain you must feel, but here's a hug ((((((((((((((((((redginger)))))))))))).

Also, I hear how difficult it was to raise your kids alone with little money and you working all the time to support them.  I'm sure you did the best you could do.  It was a super human feat.

As to your N daughter, I'm not sure what you can do.  If your therapist knows about Ns, ask your therapist for a strategy.  Maybe ask your N daughter what it is that she wants from you.

Wishing you strength and healing and glad you're here.

Love,
Sally

[redginger]

I am very sorry Red, about your daughter. My heart goes out to you. Thanks for your response to my post today. You really made me think about my behavior. (Obsessesion of my XN)

You will rec'v comfort here. I am new also. Everyone has been so kind, and understanding. Whatever it is that you feel on any given day, just post. Post and read. You will feel better.

I care, I really care that you hurt. Just remember, you are not alone on this board.

Sweetgrass
[/quote.

[Hopalong]

Hello again, Redginger...

I'm sorry I missed your post above. I'd like to read it if you feel comfortable sending it to me by PM.

Good for you for protecting yourself...not allowing any projections to hit your bruised heart. Motherhood is also a vulnerable space and blaming gets nobody anywhere.

I would just like to again send you welcome and heartfelt sympathy.

There is no satisfying answer to such a rip in the unvierse, but there can be comfort in a circle of understanding, and there are deep hearts for you here.

Thank you for trusting and taking the risk.

Gently,
Hops

[redginger]

I am very reluctant to reply but I will give you my honest answer and reaction. I want to say, first, that it could be "colored" by my relationship with my own mother..
 I could see my mother writing a post like this.
   If you have two very deeply disturbed daughters, All I hear you asking is,"How do you not feel guilt?."That is something my mother would ask. She could recount a similar" life story" and then ask that question.
  I hear you putting alot of blame on the boyfriend, the father and the sister. Where were you in the drama. You are the mother. Perhaps, you need to "repent" to your daughter rather than see her as the N or the enemy.  Perhaps you should consider the fact that I'm not your mother and each situation is different. Because I'm the mom doesn't make me the bad guy. And my daughter that died? She was not 'deeply disturbed', she was broken from living with an N for so long. Don't confuse all mothers with yours.If your two daughters are in so ,very much pain--- I would think that you would need to do a lot of soul searching to see your part in it.
  You still have one daughter left. I would be reluctant to put a label on her so fast. Maybe, she is an N. Even in that case, you as a mother could give her a bigger gift of love and repentance than blame.Maybe,she is too far gone. In any case, I think that you need to address your part in it, rather than be concerned how not to feel guilty,primarily
 I am sorry if I was "hard".  I,myself, want honest opinions, even if they hurt. Maybe, other people will feel totally differently                                              Ami

[sea stormr]

Redginger,

My heart goes out to you. I hear so much pain in your post and thank goodness you are getting some of it out here. Hopefully, you will find this a safe place. Anger is a tough one for most people to handle and I hear a wall of anger coming from you that is like a tidal wave. This is part of grieving and the anger will help to move you forward.

 Rather than trying to attach all these feelings to intellectual concepts and who is to blame for it try to ride it out like the wild wild river that it is.  Everyone in your family is affected by the death of your daughter. They are reacting in all kinds of ways. Focus on yourself and the impact of this experience on yourself. If you can take some time to do this.

Many of us have been through our own personal hell. I know I have.
I cannot imaging the pain of your loss.

God give you some serenity.

Sea storm

[Ami]

Dear Redginger,
  I hope that this board provides a vehicle for you to work on your pain.. There are many wise voices here and many differing voices. You will find what you need if you keep sharing. I hope that you will do that.                                                                                                Ami