Ns and their mothers

[Tokyojim]

As I mentioned on a number of posts, I have an N "friend" of about 40 years but fortunately do not live in the same state.

When we were in high school and shortly thereafter, I instinctively knew that he should break from his mother.  I tried to convince him to go away to college, get an apartment, or move to another state of which he was so fond.

Well, he stayed with her until she died at about 83.  He never married and virtually always dated women who were abused or suffering from bipolar, depression, etc.  They therefore never reached his standard, and he stayed with Mum.

I would visit occasionally when I went to his town to see my brother and his family.  Anyway, I saw one incident that unnerved me and would like to relate it.

He was probably in his 40s.  I was on the back porch, about to knock on the door.  He was naked in the bathroom, apparently after having taken a shower.  He walked stark naked into the other room (no towel or anything), and spoke with his mother about some simple thing, calling her by her first name.

Maybe I am "uptight" or whatever, but I cannot imagine standing naked and chatting in front of any female relative, and certainly would be very surprised if my daughter did that in front of me.

I never told him I saw it.  He has remarked, numerous times, how happy his mother must have been to have a young man around the house and how he became a surrogate husband after her divorce.

Comments?  Impressions?

Thanks!

[surf14]

HI Tokyojim:
 
  Yes it seems as if that is just what he had arranged with her to be; her young husband.  The alarm signals are going off everywhere on the boundaries issues here;  being this close and enmeshed with her is he gay?

  Am wondering what brought this up for you at this time?  Surf

[Tokyojim]

Surf,

Thank you for your information. Your comments triggered some memories about the N's relationships with women. They were predominately sado-masochistic. I mean whips and ropes. He kept telling me how great anal sex is, and insisted that I should try it with any girlfriend. After pressing him about "why" he likes it so much, he finally said that it was because it really hurts the female if done violently and one feels powerful and in control. As a textbook N with projections, he insisted that I really wanted to do this and should not fight my true desires....

He may have dabbled in a gay lifestyle.  At one point, he bragged about his many gay associates.  However, years ago, when I read a book, "Class" by Fussell, something jumped out.  The book was about how Americans search for status.  The author made one comment about some status seekers associating with gay men because they are sometimes more into the arts, are very sophisticated, use language eloquently, etc.  The N changed his speaking patterns, bragged about attending concerts, museums, etc. at that time.  In addition, he insisted, without using the word "gay," that I needed to realize my true sexuality.  A number of times, he said that I was a "sexual pervert" and should not be ashamed of it.  I must comment that none of this concretely affects me, except that it does anger me when I take the form of a projection of his unconscious drives and do not exist as a person.

What triggered the comment?  I saw a movie last night, "Dead Again," a good thriller in which one character was basically emotionally crippled because of being too close to mommy.  Probably in his 50s and still with mom.

[Anonymous]

TokyoJim,

Your message (the homosexuality part) re. your friend, reminds me so much of some things regarding my own former situation with my xN boyfriend.

He had not had any relationship, or dated at all, for 11 years (and that was his 1st girlfriend) before he met me (35 when met, so since 24).  Of course, that should have been a major red flag for me, but I covered it with denial/magical thinking.

While together, I noticed the following:

-He once said: I have flipped channels & sometimes seen nude women, I see  pretty girls on the street, and didn't feel anything, but with you, I feel incredibly turned on.

-He was overly defensive about anything related to homosexuality.

-I saw a pic. of his girlfriend at 24 and I literally lost my breath, though I tried so hard to hide it at the time.  It looked soooo much like a male!

-Some of his movements seemed effeminate (though this can be the case for truly hetro. men).

-When I questioned him about girls his sister tried to set him up with over the years (I was very curious about 11 years alone) he would always say that he just didn't feel anything when with them.

What I am really wondering, is whether the staying away from committed, stable relationshps with women (as a life long thing), is good marker of sexual preference issues?

Abstaining could be due to severe emotional/psychological issues but it seems as though even people with problems in this area still don't shy away from relationships.  They usually get in many and wreak havoc on them all.

I am wondering if for those who abstain altogether, whether the issue is sexuality much of the time.

I asked him point blank once if he had sexuality issues, and he laughed and vehemently denied it.  I don't think he was at an emotional place where he would have even admitted to himself, let alone me, though.  

I do know that he has major/pathological trust issues.

[surf14]

HI Tokyojim and guest;
  Tokyojim;  this sado masochistic friend of yours couldn't have liked women much at all if he got such a thrill from hurting them; he sounds pretty messed up.  Interesting that he encouraged you to get in touch with your "true" sexuality; I wonder what his thoughts were about his true sexuality?   Its easy to assume that he was gay from what you've shared and even so he sounds perverse.

Guest;

I'm glad your XN boyfriend was a boyfriend and not a husband!  His homophobia  was probably a red flag;  his denial that he didn't have any sexual issues is suspect along with some of the other cues you mentioned.  you can count your lucky stars that you didn't marry this person and then have to suffer this for a period of time or have to extricate yourself from an unworkable marriage .   I'm glad he's your X; are you with someone healthier now?

Surf

[Anonymous]

Hi Surf,

"are you with someone healthier now?"

I'm not in a relationship at all right now. It has been about a year since the several year (on-off as it typically goes with N) dating relationship ended & I am still recovering.

After 7 months of not speaking at all (my wishes) we also still talk by telephone only (no in person meeting) a couple of times a week, as friends.  There is no other "energy" than friendship present in our exchanges.

You are right that it is lucky for me that things ended and I *really* do feel that, but part of me seems to need to grieve the loss of "what could have been *if only*", still.   This is a psychological healing thing, and not a magical thinking thing that I would act on.   I know the painful truth/reality all too well.

I do get lonely for a  *healthy* romantic relationship, but I know I need to take care of some other personal things first.  I can't consider it until at least the end of the year <sigh>...    

Thanks for the input.

[surf14]

HI Guest;

 Sounds like you're in the  "right" state of mind about this.  I can certainly relate to grieving the "if only it could have been different".  Good luck to you!    Surf

[el123]

I can relate to this post.  My N MIL has always viewed her sons as her surrogate husbands. Her oldest son, my BIL, is also a N.  They have such a dysfunctional attachment.  It's borderline creepy (Norman Bates mother creepy ).  My MIL was unbelieveably jealous of me for "stealing" her son (we dated for 1 1/2 yrs and he asked me to marry him without me ever bringing the subject up).  She was much more like a jealous ex girlfriend than a MIL to me.  And she would act provocatively towards her sons.  She's even said things to me like "People ask me if I'm B's wife (my BIL) instead of his mother.  Wierd, creepy, icky.  -El

[Tokyojim]

El,

Thanks for your comment.  I knew the N and his mother since we were 16.  Of course, I did not know anything about personality disorders then, but instinctively knew his mother was bad news.  I tried to convince him to go away to college, get an apartment or move to a certain state he liked very much.  His mother hated me.  I later found out that she said I was a homosexual trying to seduce her son and that I was a dangerous degenerate.  Anything to keep me away from him.  She was like that about his girlfriends also.  He could not bring them around the house and lied to her about dating anyone.

After we both turned around 40, she no longer hated me.  She was secure with him by then.

Does your husband realize his mother and brother are Ns, and what he has to do about it?

[el123]

TokyoJim,
your friend's mother sounds a lot like my H's N mom as far as trying to divide you two up.  My MIL used to make my H "choose" between her and I.  For example, "needing" him on Valentine's day evening after the kids were asleep, calling on a Friday night when she knew we had plans to do something for her, etc.  Constantly.  She'd also say things to me like "put your hair up" when I received compliments for it being down, doing all sorts of catty high school type things.  I didn't even get it, I just wanted her to like me that I basically enabled her to behave that way towards me and my H did too.  He feels horrible about it now .

"Does your husband realize his mother and brother are Ns, and what he has to do about it?"

Yes both he and I both recently discovered this after it became painfully obvious (if you read my older posts, you'd see what I mean, waaay too long of a story).  He has not spoken to his brother or mother for almost a month.

Take care, -El

[Anonymous]

I read a book about this years ago called "Emotional Incest". I forget the author's name. It was awful but necessary reading because my step-daughter, was/is attached this way to her father, my husband.

She's 26 and still sits on his lap, kisses him on the lips, loves me/hates me, gets jealous if he buys me anything, holds my husband's hand if we all go out together, beats me to the front seat of the car first so that she can sit next to him. Puts her hand on his lap all the time when she's sitting next to him on the loung ot in the car, but rests it up very high, near you-know-where.

When she buys new undies sets she comes over and models them for him. Aaagh! Anyway, I read this book and I realised he definitely caused her to be like this. His relationship with her mother always stunk, so he got his female companionship from his oldest daughter till I came along. He never went out with his wife, but he used to take his kids out a lot, and his oldest daughter was like his wife and took on the role well. Also she was like a mother to the other kids too. She loved it. He'd discuss his plans and dreams with her, and let her choose where they'd go. They used to holiday away without his wife. Just him and the kids. What a nightmare for her when I came along.

It's never settled down. Her dad has listened to a lot of teh book, and knows it's not healthy, and can see how he created it. He's tried hard to introduce some boundaries but when he does she gets really hostile and we know she can't cope with it or stand it.

For example, he tries to turn his head when she goes in for the long kisses on the lips but she just keeps searching and moving her head till she gets the kiss she needs. Then the last time she modelled the new undies he absented himself after mumbling something pathetic like "Very nice." Not exactly what I wanted him to say, but I guess he did his best. At least he didn't hang around.  Blaah. It gives me the creeps sometimes. But it's a work in progress.

I've thought of getting her the book but I think she'd hate me even more, and I really don't think she'd read it. She's not a reader at all. She married a guy who looks like her dad and has the same occupation as him.

Anyway, the book was excellent and was called "Emotional Incest." Well worth a read if you have serious questions about this or are in a close relationship with someone like this.

Guest

[Wildflower]

He has not spoken to his brother or mother for almost a month.

Wow, El.  That's such great news!  Sending strength vibes your way to keep up the resistance!

Wildflower

[Wildflower]

Wow, Guest.  What a creepy situation!    

For example, he tries to turn his head when she goes in for the long kisses on the lips but she just keeps searching and moving her head till she gets the kiss she needs. Then the last time she modelled the new undies he absented himself after mumbling something pathetic like "Very nice." Not exactly what I wanted him to say, but I guess he did his best. At least he didn't hang around. Blaah. It gives me the creeps sometimes. But it's a work in progress.

It sounds like he's finally putting in the effort to take the right steps towards correcting their relationship, and that's so great.  It must be so difficult for both of them, though.  All of you, really.  I'm sitting here thinking about how I'd feel in this situation, and while I can't really imagine it, I wonder what would happen if he tried to have an honest conversation with his daughter instead of dropping hints and making changes without telling her what's going on.  Maybe a conversation about how he messed up and it's not her fault but that he'd like to make it up to her and try to have a normal father-daughter relationship with her?  I only say that because I know how I often jump to the the worst conclusion when I'm confused about something or don't understand why things have changed (he doesn't love me anymore, she's making him do this, blah blah blah).  It may be something that just takes time to change, but I thought I'd throw that out there in any case.

Wildflower

[Portia]

....

[rosencrantz]

Aaagh - you got me!!!  My mother was well 'into' kissing on the lips.  I remember having a serious conversation with her in my teens once  - I didn't want any more kissing on the lips unless it was a very, very special moment!!!  Actually I didn't want it at all, but I was trying to cut her some slack!!! Bleah!

Hey - that's a boundary!  I was setting boundaries!!!!!  
R