Author Topic: "they don't know what they did"  (Read 5192 times)

Ami

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7820
"they don't know what they did"
« on: July 05, 2007, 06:53:19 PM »
A lot of psychological  theories say that the abusive parent did the best they could. They were acting on what they knew. I have been thinking about this all day. Many people here had abusive parents but were not abusive, themselves,Why?Because they knew that it was wrong.
  My N mother never did "anything" in front of people. Why not? She must have known that it was wrong.
   I go back and forth on this--- Could they help it? I think that they could b/c God gives everyone a conscience.
   I don't know,but I think that if the person is functioning enough to know right from wrong, then they could help it.
   I don;t know ,though. I keep thinking of a story about my mother. She left my brother (14 months) with her mother for a summer. She had to do this-it was not a whim. Anyway, when she got back, my brother did not look at her. He was angry.( My son did this to me when I left him for a weekend at 14 months.) Anyway, my mother thought that my brother rejected HER.She had a rift from him from that day on.She took it as a rejection by a 14 month old kid.Now, she realized that it was crazy". However, did someone like that have a choice? I really don't know.
 I thought that I had the answer when I started the post,but I still don't know.In another thread a person who was abused as a child said that she hates it when people say,'They did the best they could."This started me thinking. In the end, I still do not know
  Maybe,  there is no answer that anyone will know for sure.                     Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

isittoolate

  • Guest
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2007, 07:26:39 PM »
Hey Ami,
They did the best they could. Many parents did, I believe, but it might depend on--1.-- the era (which is me) or the for instance--2.-- if a family is so "close" that they see no other behaviour.

Explain , Izzy!

Since I am 68, my parents would now be 98, if alive, being born in 1908 and 1909.  Did I spend enough time with my grandparents to 'get to know them'? No! Whatever they were like could have been passed down to my parents, yet.....

....all of them experienced the time of WWI, the Depression, WWII (and I was born the year WWII began, 1939.)

My parents lived on an isolated farm when they were married, and I expect they might have wondered where children came from. My mother , I heard had said, married my father as he was likely her last choice. They were 25. it was not until 1963 that they finally gave up the farm life and moved to a small city.  Everything that happened , happened in isolation on the farm. I left home at 17, 1956.

I know a couple, still alive, my age group at least, and they have 8 children. Each child was named with a name that began with the letter "D". I never knew one from the other. They lived on a farm, so there were 10 people running around, doing things together, Even when the klids grew up and married they were always at the parents' house-- all of them, so I heard. Now I don't know how they turned out, but that is an example of a daily being together SO much that they never learn another way  of living.

So they did the best they could: add "with the tools they had to work with"!!! That's the whole expression.

If one is not given the tools and told how to use them, it is a waste and everything goes wrong.

What if you were given a hammer and a nail, didn't know what they were and were not told what to do. If you decided to hit the nail into your brother's skull!-- Whoops! wrong! Sorry bro' and move on to the next mistake!

This time you see a buzz saw and plug it in.  It spins so fast you cannot see it, so you reach out to see what's happening and lose half an arm.

Everyone is entitled to know the full extent of the consequences of certain actions and some people are not quite prepared to understand it, because they have never gone through/never knew anyone who went through it.

Want any more tool references? I lived on a farm and had to work with all these dangerous tools, but at least I was warned about their danger. I was NOT, however, warned about LIFE'S dangers.

Do you dig?


Love Izzy
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 07:31:00 PM by isittoolate »

redginger

  • Guest
.
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2007, 11:35:43 PM »
.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 10:52:43 PM by redginger »

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13603
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2007, 01:35:15 AM »
Red,
GREAT son.

 :)

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

innerquest

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2007, 01:53:31 AM »
Ami, thought provoking obersavation!  

I did some thinking based on my own parents, here are my two cents:

My parents are two faced, nice and reasonable to the outside world, mean and bully to their kids. That sugests that they know right and wrong, but being very smart about it, they don't want outside world caught on that they are bullies. They reserve their worst behavior for their kids.  And my N mother being so maliciously evil, selfish, try to crash you so badly if she could not get her way, you just can not explain away with "Oh, they did their best they can do".  They just want to win, at your cost.  Very hard to swallow as abused.

But they do believe they are entitled what they are doing, even abusing you.  They project all their guilt, shame, weakness to you.  The projection is complete, they are even not aware of the projection, it was done automatically.  In their eyes, you are guilty, they see vividly all the things they want to see.  So in a sense, they really did their best they can do, because they can not do any better, or any different, this is what they are.  They are not aware of their projection, at least for my parents.  It is no way to convince my N mom about this, not in this life time.  

What made them shortcircuit their conscience, without notice their projection of their guilt completely?  That is the difference between us and them.   We did not do that.  But I read that N family tends to produce N offsprings, so not all abused are conscienscious.  But what is the saving grace?  I don't know.  The simple answer would we have some real goodness in us which just can not be stamped out.

  

redginger

  • Guest
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2007, 02:34:40 AM »
Red,
GREAT son.

 :)

Hops
Thanks Hops, I think he's pretty great, too!

lighter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8636
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2007, 07:37:50 AM »
Eh..... when I use the phrase "they did the best they could" I'm almost always following it up with..."If they could have done better, they would have." 

For me, it's not about whether they knew what they were doing was wrong. 

It doesn't really matter. 

THEY DIDN'T do better BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T or they would have.  Any reasonable person would have. 

They aren't reasonable. 

They don't have the ability to put anyone else's feelings or needs before their own because they have DISORDERED minds.

Even if they know better, like crack addicts know better, their pain overrides the RIGHT choice.
 

N's are attention addicts. 

Children desire and require attention too. 

Can you imagine the strain that puts on someone who WANTS ALL THE EMPATHY/ATTENTION FOR THEMSELVES? 

The child is going to be marginalized and scapegoated bc N  has to keep avoiding REALITY at all costs. 

Not because harming their child is the goal.  It's not.  Avoiding reality is their goal and harming those around them is the natural by product.... it's a SYMPTOM not the cause.  They don't have any empathy for those around them.  THEY ARE THE HARM THEY DO!  Asking them to change would be like asking them to stop being a diabetic, as opposed to a crack addict. 

THEY ARE THE PERSONALITY DISORDER, it's not something they can change about themselves.   

The N naturally projects their own character flaws on eveyone around them IMAGINE HOW EASY IT IS TO DO TO AN INNOCENT LITTLE CHILD!  Not because N's have children to BE the perfect victims.  I think most N's have children bc they WANT to have normal lives.  They want to be good parents.  THEY THINK THEY ARE GOOD PARENTS.  They aren't even whole functional people.  They have the emotional level of a 2 year old.  It's bound to go badly.

Imagine the guilt they'd feel if they didn't blame EVERYTHING on someone else.... on the child, husband, sister, employee. employer.  They're that sick and broken, Ami, that they can't take responsibility for any of their flaws or misconduct.  Brittle and flimsey is their ability to cope and the reality would break them.

Your mother can't do any better because of defense mechanisms she put in place to survive her own childhood, most likely.  Not because she chose to feel and act this way or because you deserved it in any small way.

She just knows that she feels bad and she wants to protect herself from feeling bad, it's a cycle and it self perpetuates.

If she's truly an N, her ego is a paralyzed little child huddling inside, a helpless voyer and unable to participate or have a voice. 

The personality construct, that saved her when she was a child, living her life. 

Now, those defense mechanism hurts her but what's she to do? 

It's about survival for her, not about tearing her children apart. 

For you, it's about being torn apart and you'll have to put yourself back together and make peace with the fact that your mother cannot will not could not do better than she has. 

She's constructed walls and attitudes to defend agains EXAMINING her actions, she won't ever get around to changing them, because she won't examine them.  See?  Nothing to do with you.  Not that you aren't important enough it's that she can't because it would be like facing death for her.  She doesn't want to go there.  She won't, even if she understood and cared that she hurt you, which she doesn't IMO, she can't take the exposure and reality.  IT'S ALL SHE LIVES FOR!  PERPETUATING her own skewed reality and forcing it down the throats of those around her.  Beating them down and relentlessly making them doubt reality and accept her own version. 

What a dreadful way to live!

She can't change that about herself.  I'm so sorry Ami. 

The saying.... "It's hope that kills us" comes to mind over and over again. 

Accept your mother and her behavior for what it is.  It isn't personal, though nothing on this earth could BE more personal than a mother's treatment of her baby/child, I know.   

You're mother was lost a very long time ago, probably between 18months and 36months of age.  She never recovered.  I'm sorry.  Try to feel some empathy for what happened to her but know that you can save no one BUT YOURSELF! 

That's your job now. 

You, my dear, will recover and you and your children and future grandchildren will benefit from all that you're learning. 

You have broken a cycle and it's your job to help your son's parent as well as possible. 

Remember to rise above and try to view this without emotion. 

Try to enter the role of observer in your own life if you can. 

It's so hard to think much less think straight when your being swept along by shots of adrenaline and pain and fear during this very difficult time in your life. 

I can't imagine how hard it must be ((Ami))

You're doing some very good work on this board.

Ami is a survivor, a mother, a wife and the caretaker of animals and herself. 

As for the role of wife, you may or may choose to continue with that. 

Your discovering Ami right now and that's your focus. 

Don't freak yourself out worrying about decisions, concentrate on gaining knowledge and tools and KNOW that you're going to feel better some days and worse on others. 

Stop freaking out and get still when the bad comes.  Listen to it and see what it's trying to say. 

Your pain needs to be heard and I think you're very intuitive and capable Ami.  You just don't trust yourself yet.....

but you will; ) 
 

Ami

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7820
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2007, 07:50:10 AM »
Thank you for responding. I would like to find a peace about this question. God gave everyone a conscience. With your father, S and S, he must have pushed it down so far that it was not there. I am so .very,very sorry that you had to have a father like that. You are so sensitive and caring. Probably all that pain birthed a poet.
 I.Q-- you are a soul sister. We had material things ,also.. On the outside, we looked good. However, the secret was that a "monster" lived there(mother) and no one could ever state the obvious. The rages, disgusting statements, mean comments. destructive comments-- all had to be absorbed . The main thing is that you could never say that there was something "wrong" with her It was never ,ever ,even "thought of" that you could question this "reality"
  I guess that this is classic NPD.
Can they help it? Why don't they abuse you in front of people then? I don't know. I really don't.The other thing with my mother ( and H), is that if you are strong ,they don't mess with you. So, what does that mean.?They can chose WHO they abuse. That is for sure. they only prey on the weak people.
  My FIL was a worse N than my mother. One day, I calmly stood up and said that I will never see them again if they don't treat me right. NEVER again did he mess with me-- for 12 years.                                                                                                                                 
   I still do not have an answer.,though.
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7820
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2007, 07:58:03 AM »
Dear Lighter,
  MY Goodness- where did you get all that wisdom? I am speechless. I am just sitting her-- in awe. You said it all so simply .You gave the overview of a lifetime of pain. There it is in" black and white,"' There is the 'truth". The personality disorder IS her.. It is not like something she puts on(like clothes). It IS her.
Either you are a genius or I just got it--- or BOTH. Thanks so very much,Lighter, for being here.
   I want to ask you a question. It seems that after you took that break, that you changed in a deep way. Did something happen ? Did you have a big change ? I would love to know
                                                                                       Love   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7820
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2007, 08:15:12 AM »
I Got My answer --- SHE IS the personality disorder- THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU                 Love   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

reallyME

  • Guest
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2007, 08:43:18 AM »
Ohhhhhhhhh there is soooooo much here to comment on...i am going to try and keep my comments concise because I really do want you all to read what I have to share:

Quote
Ami: Ami: What if you were given a hammer and a nail, didn't know what they were and were not told what to do. If you decided to hit the nail into your brother's skull!-- Whoops! wrong! Sorry bro' and move on to the next mistake!

This time you see a buzz saw and plug it in.  It spins so fast you cannot see it, so you reach out to see what's happening and lose half an arm.

THIS VIVID WORD PICTURE, IS THE BEST I HAVE EVER HEARD NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER AND OTHER PERSONALITY DISORDERS DESCRIBED!

Another saying I've heard like this is "realize that the N cannot give you what they never had.  Their "empathy receptors" never got connected or developed, so don't expect empathic responses when the connections to them, never even FORMED."

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

(sorry, cannot remember who posted this but it's BRILLIANT!)

Quote
Quote
THEY DIDN'T do better BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T or they would have.  Any reasonable person would have.  

They aren't reasonable.  


>>>>>>>THIS IS THE FIRST THING YOU NEED TO REALIZE.  YOU WERE EXPECTING "REASONING ABILITY" FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS NO ABILITY TO REASON.

Quote
They don't have the ability to put anyone else's feelings or needs before their own because they have DISORDERED minds.

Even if they know better, like crack addicts know better, their pain overrides the RIGHT choice.

>>>>>YES, WITH X IN MY SITUATION, EVERYTHING, AND I MEAN EVERYTHING, WAS ABOUT "AVOID PAIN AND GUILT AT ALL COSTS" X EVEN TOLD ME "I CAN'T HANDLE TALKING ABOUT NEGATIVE SUBJECTS, SO LET'S SWITCH TO ONLY HAPPY THINGS, OK?"
  

Quote
N's are attention addicts.  

Children desire and require attention too.  

Can you imagine the strain that puts on someone who WANTS ALL THE EMPATHY/ATTENTION FOR THEMSELVES?  


>>>>>AND WHEN THE NARCISSISTIC PERSON HAS BEEN GIVEN THAT ATTENTION ALL THEIR LIVES, THEY COME TO "EXPECT" AND "DEMAND" IT, AND WILL "PUNISH" ANYONE WHO DOESN'T GIVE THEM WHAT IS DUE OR WHO DARES TO POINT OUT THEIR SEEKING OF IT.  TO THEM, YOU, WHO WILL NOT PRAISE THEM, ARE THE "BAD GUY" AND DESERVE TO "PAY!"


Quote
The child is going to be marginalized and scapegoated bc N  has to keep avoiding REALITY at all costs.  

Not because harming their child is the goal.  It's not.  Avoiding reality is their goal and harming those around them is the natural by product.... it's a SYMPTOM not the cause.  They don't have any empathy for those around them.  THEY ARE THE HARM THEY DO!  Asking them to change would be like asking them to stop being a diabetic, as opposed to a crack addict.  


>>>>>YEP, AVOIDING REALITY IS THE MAIN GOAL FOR THEM.  THEY WILL SEEM TO BE "WITH YOU" IN LIFE, BUT THEN YOU WILL NOTICE THEY NEVER TRULY DO "CONNECT" ON ANY DEEP, INTIMATE LEVEL FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME OR AT ALL.



Quote
THEY ARE THE PERSONALITY DISORDER, it's not something they can change about themselves.  
 

>>>>>I DO BELIEVE THAT SOME OF THEM CAN CHANGE, JUST AS I BELIEVE THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL TURN TO THE LORD AND SOME WILL CHOOSE TO LIVE THEIR OWN WILL.  IT'S UP TO GOD'S FINAL PLAN, IN MY VIEW, WHICH ONES WILL ONE DAY "HATE" WHO THEY ARE (THE BIBLE SAYS IT LIKE THIS, "HATING THE VERY GARMENT SPOTTED WITH SIN") AND THEY WILL THEN, NO LONGER "SEE THEIR FACE IN A MIRROR AND TURN AWAY, FORGETTING WHAT MANNER OF MAN THEY WERE."  

Quote
The N naturally projects their own character flaws on eveyone around them IMAGINE HOW EASY IT IS TO DO TO AN INNOCENT LITTLE CHILD!  Not because N's have children to BE the perfect victims.  I think most N's have children bc they WANT to have normal lives.  They want to be good parents.  THEY THINK THEY ARE GOOD PARENTS.  They aren't even whole functional people.  They have the emotional level of a 2 year old.  It's bound to go badly.

>>>>>>>YES, THE CHILDREN GET THE BRUNT OF IT ALL.  THEY RARELY ARE ALLOWED TO CHOOSE THINGS FOR THEMSELVES, SO THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE IS NOT IN THEM...AS ADULTS, CHILDREN OF N'S WATCH PEOPLE AND LISTEN FOR "CUES" TO TELL THEM HOW TO REACT AND WHAT TO DO.  OFTEN, ONCE THE NARCISSISTIC PARENT-FIGURE IS GONE, THE ADULT-CHILD, HAS NO ABILITY TO FUNCTION ON HIS/HER OWN.


Quote
Imagine the guilt they'd feel if they didn't blame EVERYTHING on someone else.... on the child, husband, sister, employee. employer.  They're that sick and broken, Ami, that they can't take responsibility for any of their flaws or misconduct.  Brittle and flimsey is their ability to cope and the reality would break them.

>>>>X USED TO EVEN TELL ME HOW SHE HATED TIMES WHEN SHE HAD TO REMINISCE ON HOW SHE TREATED ME.  SHE USED TO BEG ME NOT TO "GO THERE" OR MAKE HER "GO THERE" BECAUSE THE PAIN FROM THE GUILT WAS JUST WAY TOO MUCH.  WHEN WE FIRST MET, SHE WARNED ME "I LOVE DEEEEEEEEEEPLY; MORE DEEP THAN MOST PEOPLE"  (AS IF THIS SEEMED LIKE A GOOD THING AT THE TIME, I BEGAN BONDING WITH HER, BECAUSE I BELIEVED SHE MEANT THAT AS IT SOUNDED)  ONLY TO LATER REALIZE, IT MEANT THAT, IF SHE BEGAN TO "FEEL" ANY NEGATIVE EMOTIONS, CAUSING HER TO HAVE TO ADMIT SHE HURT ME AND "APPEARED" THE OPPOSITE OF "LOVING," SHE'D PUNISH ME FOR IT BECAUSE IT WAS SOMETHING I "DID TO HER" AND IT WAS "NOT ALLOWED"  HOW DARE I CONFRONT HER FOR BEING "UNKIND" ETC...SHE WAS A MINISTER AFTER ALL...THAT JUST COULDN'T "BE" HER I WAS REFERRING TO AND I MUST "PAY" FOR CALLING ATTENTION TO THE "REAL" X

Quote
Your mother can't do any better because of defense mechanisms she put in place to survive her own childhood, most likely.  Not because she chose to feel and act this way or because you deserved it in any small way.

She just knows that she feels bad and she wants to protect herself from feeling bad, it's a cycle and it self perpetuates.


>>>>I HAVE TO AGREE WITH THIS ONE FOR SURE.  I SAW MANY DEFENSE MECHANISMS IN X THAT SHE USED TO SURVIVE:

"I'M STRONG AND I DON'T NEED OR WANT CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE" (OH REALLY, X...THEN WHY DID YOU RUN RIGHT TO THE NEXT PERSON AFTER PERSON, ONCE YOU RID YOURSELF OF ME?)

USING HER SPIRITUAL ONLINE TEACHINGS TO INDIRECTLY TELL HER "STORY" ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE IN HER LIFE WHO WOUNDED HER WHEN ALL SHE WAS DOING WAS TRYING TO FOLLOW GOD'S PLAN  (THING IS, WE WEREN'T STUPID AND WE KNEW THAT SHE WAS REFERRING TO US IN THE CHARACTERS SHE MADE UP IN HER MESSAGES.  WHEN WE'D TRY AND ASK HER IF "THAT CHARACTER YOU SPOKE ABOUT BETRAYING YOU WAS ME?" HER RESPONSE WAS DEFENSIVE "NOOOOOOOO, I'D NEVER DO THAT! I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU'D THINK THAT OF ME. I LOVE YOU.  HAVEN'T I ALWAYS BEEN THERE FOR YOU?"

OF COURSE THERE WAS OTHER DEFENSES LIKE REVERTING INTO THE "LITTLE GIRL X" STATE OF MIND, WITHDRAWING OF AFFECTION AND ATTENTION, DISSOCIATIVE IGNORING OF PEOPLE, SHOWING FAVORITISM IN FRONT OF THE "SCORNED" ONE IN HER LIFE...ETC ETC

Quote
If she's truly an N, her ego is a paralyzed little child huddling inside, a helpless voyer and unable to participate or have a voice.  

The personality construct, that saved her when she was a child, living her life.  


>>>>YES, I SAW THIS ONE WHEN X'S MOTHER WAS AROUND...ALTHOUGH, THE IMAGE I WAS SHOWN OF X, WAS ONE OF BEING THE "LEADER" OF THE CONVOS.  X'S MOTHER WAS PRACTICALLY "BOWED DOWN TO" WHEN SHE WALKED THROUGH THE DOOR.  EVERYONE STOPPED WHAT THEY WERE DOING, TO GIVE X'S MOTHER FULLEST ATTENTION.  NOW, I UNDERSTAND A LEVEL OF RESPECT FOR THE ELDERS, BUT, IN MY VIEW, THIS WAS WAY OUTOF BALANCE AND IT SEEMED X'S MOTHER HAD LEARNED TO EXPECT THIS SORT OF THING, BECAUSE SHE WAS SEEN AS THE "WISE ONE" AMONG THE CLAN.


Quote
Now, those defense mechanism hurts her but what's she to do?  

It's about survival for her, not about tearing her children apart.  

For you, it's about being torn apart and you'll have to put yourself back together and make peace with the fact that your mother cannot will not could not do better than she has.  

She's constructed walls and attitudes to defend agains EXAMINING her actions, she won't ever get around to changing them, because she won't examine them.


>>>>>>>ON THE CONTRARY IN MY SITUATION...OH, X EXAMINED THEM ALRIGHT...AND THEN TURNED AND "REPENTED" AND KEPT ON DOING THE SAME CRUEL THINGS OVER AND OVER AGAIN WITH NO CHANGE AND NO REMORSE, EXCEPT FOR A MOMENT MAYBE.


Quote
See?  Nothing to do with you.  Not that you aren't important enough it's that she can't because it would be like facing death for her.  She doesn't want to go there.  She won't, even if she understood and cared that she hurt you, which she doesn't IMO, she can't take the exposure and reality.  IT'S ALL SHE LIVES FOR!  PERPETUATING her own skewed reality and forcing it down the throats of those around her.  Beating them down and relentlessly making them doubt reality and accept her own version.  


>>>> YEP, AGAIN, X SEEMED TO "CARE THAT SHE HURT" ME FOR A MOMENT, UNTIL I BEGAN TRYING TO DISCUSS THE "WHY" OF IT WITH HER.  THEN, I WAS THE "BAD GUY" FOR DRAWING ATTENTION TO SOMETHING NEGATIVE, ONCE AGAIN.

IT TOOK ME THE LONGEST TIME, TO REALIZE THAT IT "WASN'T ME" WHO CAUSED ALL THE ISSUES...THEY WERE THERE IN THAT FAMILY, LONG BEFORE I CAME INTO THE PICTURE.  I WAS THE ONE WHO DARED TO POINT OUT THAT THE EMPRESSESS AND EMPORERS DIDN'T HAVE THE CLOTHES ON...HOW DARE I?  BECAUSE I HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE UNJUST TREATMENT...I SAW WHAT THE CHILDREN WERE TREATED LIKE AND I FELT IT AS THOUGH I WAS TURNED INTO "LITTLE X"...SO I KNEW THINGS WERE NOT GOOD OR HEALTHY IN THAT SITUATION, AND I WANTED TO LET THEM KNOW THAT I NOTICED AND WANTED TO HELP IF I COULD (AT THE TIME, THOUGH, I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD, WHO LIKE TO LIVE IN DYSFUNCTION...IT'S LIKE SOME SORT OF FAMILY HEIRLOOM TO THEM; ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE WELL-KNOWN, IN THE CASE OF POPULAR PEOPLE...ROYALTY, MINISTRY, POLITICIANS...IT GIVES THEM PRESTIGE TO BE NOTORIOUS BEHIND THE SCENES OR SOMETHING.


Quote
Quote
Ami, again: Ami: I am seeing that I became"sick" b/c I truly was trying to make my mother better. The whole family was "united " around the perception that her reality was "right." There was a "monster" in the room,but you could never notice it.. No one could ever say that her reality was "off". It was an issue that was "not allowable."I, for my part, became who she wanted to  be so that she could be O.K. or "right"

>>>>>>>IN MY CASE, SINCE I WASN'T X'S DAUGHTER (THANK YOU LORD), EVEN THOUGH I STARTED OUT IGNORING THE MONSTER AND TRYING TO COOPERATE WITH THE FAMILY'S "REALITY", VERY SOON, AS I NOTICED THINGS THAT JUST WERE NOT "RIGHT" I BEGAN POINTING OUT THE MONSTER!  THAT IMMEDIATELY MADE ME "NOT TRUSTED"  "VILLIAN"  "SHE KNOWS TOO MUCH SO SHE MUST BE PUNISHED QUICKLY AND SILENCED."  THE PROBLEM WAS, THEY COULDN'T SILENCE ME...THE MORE THEY TRIED, THE MORE I BLEW THAT WHISTLE AND SHOUTED ABOUT THEIR NAKEDNESS.


 
Quote
At 14, I donated myself to make her feel that she was not crazy. . . At 14, I took on all that she wanted to give me so   she  would not have to feel badly about herself.
  I took on it all- her viewpoint, her morals, her world view,. her opinions, how she wore her hair, dressed etc etc. I was the 'buffer". If I acted like she was normal, she would not have to feel badly about herself She would not have to face that she was not O.K..If I confirmed her reality,then she could feel good. If I never showed her up, she would not have to feel  bad about herself. If I was healthy emotionally, that would be showing her up.  I made that "deal with the devil"  ..


>>>>>>AS I SAID ABOVE, I DID THIS OR TRIED TO, AT FIRST.  APPARENTLY X WAS USED TO PEOPLE LETTING HER TRY TO "CLONE" THEM, BUT I JUST AM NOT REAL USEFUL AS CLONING MATERIAL I GUESS.

ALL OF WHAT AMI SAID ABOUT BEING THE "BUFFER" WOULD HAVE APPLIED TO ME TOO IN THE FIRST BIT OF THE RELATIONSHIP.  I LEARNED THAT I DIDN'T DARE POINT TO ANY FLAWS IN X, ESPECIALLY IN FRONT OF PEOPLE...OH LORD NO...THAT WAS THE UNPARDONABLE SIN, PUNISHABLE BY WITHDRAWL OF HER ATTENTION, PUBLIC SMEARING CAMPAINS, MOCKERY, BROKEN PROMISES, FALSE ACCUSATIONS...ANYTHING THAT MAKE X FEEL THAT I HAD "PAID" FOR WHAT I EXPOSED.

Quote
If I was well, she would be threatened. I submitted to this                                                                                           My life became walking this tight rope. I had to achieve,but not too much to make her feel bad. I had to look good,but not too much so she would get jealous. I had to take on her viewpoints b/c that showed her that she was right. . If I took on all the bad traits, I could spare her being the fearful, dependent and emotionally ill one. I became it. If I was emotionally sick, she could be the "bigger one" to help me.

>>>>>>OH GOSH CAN I RELATE TO THIS ONE!  I CAN'T SAY IT ANY BETTER THAN AMI DID.  THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I EXPERIENCED TOO...I DIDN'T DARE GET THE ATTENTION FROM X'S ASSOCIATES INSTEAD OF HER...THERE WOULD BE HELL TO PAY!  SHE MUST ALWAYS BE KNOWN AND SEEN AT "THE ONE"  AGAIN, WHEN HER ASSOCIATES WOULD COMPLIMENT ME, I WAS TO BE PUNISHED FOR THAT.

Quote
I guess I have the answer to why she tries to take away my reality. There can be only her view of life( sick). I cannot see another way.If I do, that threatens her viewpoint.

>>>>>>>AS DISTORTED AS THAT SOUNDS, YOU GOT IT, AMI~!

lighter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8636
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2007, 09:08:42 AM »
I'm glad you feel better, Ami.  I know I do.  Just going over the things I KNOW helps me internalize them and make them a part of my legend.  Just knowing doesn't mean I internalize the information.  Sharing it really is the next step in learning.  This board does me so much good, I thank God for it. 

The break I took wasn't a catalyst.

The break was about dealing with paperwork and crisis to do with N.  I literally didn't have time to post, though you'll notice I managed to sneak in and never really stopped posting, lol.   

I need the contact with people who accept what I say and don't doubt because everything I say is "improbable." 

I KNOW IT'S IMPROBABLE! 

I don't need to hear or see it in people's eyes. 

It's the reality, no matter how improbable and this board is the only place I can come where everyone isn't freaked out when I talk about this stuff. 

My mother was shaking and cold and shocky for a couple days then driving me a little nuts trying to over direct me in the direction I was already headed. 

Not that I don't NEED the damned help. 

I surely do but, it's easier to come here than put my family and friends in distress.... drag them along with me on this journey.  Ahhhhh!  I hate that I'm doing this to them but I can't dwell on that.  Have to keep moving and keep doing what's on my list.

finding peace

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2007, 05:11:28 PM »
Hey Ami –

Were you talking about me when I stated that the phrase: “they were doing the best they knew how,” makes my blood boil at times? 

I used to try and explain my father’s behavior away with that one when I was a lot younger - not anymore.  He did whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, to fulfill whatever twisted need he had inside – at anyone else’s expense.  Oh yes – he knew better, he just didn’t care. He got some kind of sick enjoyment out of it.   :evil: Maybe that makes him a psychopath instead of a narcissist?

My mother also used this as an excuse for her behavior - she would do something really hurtful, when I would try to talk to her about it, she would say, I was just doing the best I knew how, and then turn around and do the same thing again.  :evil: :evil:

So yes - for me, when I hear this in reference to my family, it makes my blood boil.

In any case, I do believe that some are doing the best they know how.  I think many never learned to question.  It reminds me of the Milgram experiments where a surprisingly large number of nice, normal people administered an electric shock that was high enough to seriously hurt or kill a person solely because someone in a white coat told them to. 

I can accept that someone is doing the best they know how, if they are willing to learn and change when “what they best know” is hurting someone else; however, if they continue on the same path, refusing to see their role in another’s pain, all the while continuing their harmful behavior - then it strikes me that this phrase should be:  “they were doing the best they knew how - for them and only them.”

Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

tayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
    • http://tayana.blogspot.com
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2007, 05:26:22 PM »
Ami,

I never understood why my mother did things the way she did.  Just like calling me at work and yelling at me for voicing frustrations to my brother.  I'm not responsible for what my brother does with the things I tell him.  I'm not responsible for how he treats my parents.  They both want to know why my brother acts and reacts the way  he does.  I think it has a lot to do with, we were never allowed to have an authentic feeling.  If we had feelings about something, then we had better keep them to ourselves, like our dad does.

"They were doing the best they knew how . . ."

That phrase makes me angry.  My mom used to always use this, "I'm doing the best I can."  Of course she didn't seem to care that she was hurting me.  She doesn't care that her criticisms hurt.  At times, when I'm feeling more compassionate, I pity her.  Her life is very sad and empty.  She won't do anything to make it a better, happier life.  I don't think that phrase is really all that true, but perhaps, I'm still nursing my anger right now.  I can't quite tell.  It seems like that phrase was coined just to excuse their behavior.
http://tayana.blogspot.com

You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you
really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing you think you cannot
do.
-Elanor Roosevelt

mudpuppy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1276
Re: "they don't know what they did"
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2007, 06:51:20 PM »
Anyone who has watched an N calculate the lie they will tell to protect themselves and/or harm others and has watched them sadisticly manipulate and bully those weaker than them in private and instantly turn on the charm when someone more powerful comes into view would have a very hard time convincing me these people have ever done the best they could. I believe they intentionally and purposefully do the very worst they can, not the best, and I think they take great pride in it.
They know what they do and they choose to do it. How else can their ability to turn it on and off at will be explained?
To give them the out that they did the best they could is to devalue to nothing all those people who really do strive to do the best they can without hurting others despite the obstacles in their life.

mud