Author Topic: Are we mentally ill?  (Read 17131 times)

WRITE

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2007, 01:56:21 PM »
As someone who lives with a serious mental illness I take issue with words like crazy and ideas like mental illness excusing or explaining murder and abuse.

Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer killed people because they were obsessed with themselves and their power over others and for sexual gratification.

Most people who have mental illness are not violent or abusive.

There is a lot of media-fuelled hysteria and ignorance surrounding mental illness, but the bottom line is whatever and whoever you are you are responsible for managing that and your own behaviour.

No matter what is wrong with you it doesn't excuse harming or killing others.

If a person believes they have a right to harm another it is their values which are off, and saying 'but I have a mental illness' doesn't cut it with me.

I know hundreds of people who have to live with mental illness who don't use it as an excuse and who work hard to minimise the impact on those around them and to live a good life.

As for 'snapping', and 'breaking points' it all depends what you personally feel is acceptable behaviour as to how far you go when provoked or frustrated or angry.

There are always choices in all the cases cited.

That's why it's important to keep and teach good values and clearly delineate abuse in our societies.

Sometimes I think we lose the balance between justice and sympathy, swinging wildly one way then another.

Violence is wrong.

Mental illness is manageable and treatable and not an excuse for murder or abuse even when it is a mitigating factor.

~W


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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2007, 02:52:30 PM »
Well, here is the deal.  I hadn't worked with Heidi in several years.  Occasionally we would go to Jimmy's (the restaurant she worked at after Chi Chi's with me........................she was the best waitress, people would wait to be seated in her section.....you would turn to ask for a soda and it was there, in her hand................) and she would wait on us.  Always friendly....but never really close.  As close as you can be when you work with someone day in and day out for five years but then kind of lose contact..................so I ran into another former co-worker and he told me Heidi was expecting.  Heidi and I are the same age so I felt for her being 38 and expecting a child (I had my last at 35 and it was not fun.)

So the question, did I see anything OFF with her?  No.  She was always fun loving.  She liked to party as did the rest of us back then.  She also smoked cigs a lot - too much.  So her story was the phone rang and Jacob was in the bath.  She went out on the deck and talked on the phone and smoked cigs.  When she came in Jacob's face was under the water.  What would you do?  Call 911, right?  Well, Heidi put Jacob in the car and drove to a lake and put his body in the lake under a couple of rocks.  She went home and fell asleep.  Her husband came home and asked where the baby was and she lied and said he should be right there....they acted upon the assumption that he had been kidnapped.  Long story short..................she admitted what she did and they went to trial.  They never used the post partum defense.  She denied any wrong doing.  But here is the rub.  Heidi did not cry when they talked about Jacob.  She only cried when they talked about her going to jail for years.  She is not pretty and she smokes so the defense kind of vilified her for smoking.  My thought is if she was beautiful and didn't smoke they would have been more lenient on her??  Maybe??

But as I googled her today they are appealing because they are sure something was off...............her general affect was down trodden.  She was overwhelmed by the enormity of being a parent and I am sure she must have had some kind of post partum.  I am remembering Marie Osmond was in her late 30s or early 40s when she had her last baby and she just took off.....she drove up the coast....left all her children.  She and Brooke Shields would tell you it is a very real thing.  As would anyone who has suffered from a real case of depression - not the blues but a full blown case.  You cannot mind over matter it.

So all that got me to thinking about us on this board.  Can we not snap out of it because our brain chemistry and wiring are still hard wired to think we are worthless and ugly and fat and have no voice, etc.  Why can't we just snap out of it?  Because we are sick maybe.  Write mentioned her mental illness and stated that it doesn't give anyone the right to murder, etc.  Exactly.  We DO manage our illnesses with medication, therapy, etc.  But what if you do not know you are ill?  What if Heidi had no idea she had a bad case of Post Partum Psychosis...............you wouldn't realize it, right?  Because you were in the midst of it.  What if that baby just needed a little mouth to mouth resuscitation but in her altered state she started to freak out and rationalized an irrational thing???  Oh, and the part about drunk drivers only getting a couple years??  They chose to drink.  She didn't choose to have a temporary mental illness.  But the judicial system has her jailed until she is in her 80s......she never had a history of arrest.  She was just a hard working waitress.....

And my referral to Bundy and Dahmer.................it seems to me that Dahmer was really screwed up and Bundy was evil.  And so often they portray their families as normal but so many of us have "normal" families, at least that is what everyone thinks, right???
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

Hopalong

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2007, 03:30:31 PM »
(((((((((((((((((((((little Jacob))))))))))))))))))))))))   :cry:

I think Heidi was broken. Self absorbed. Untaught how to mother.
And maybe PPD.

But I believe it was a crime.

Sometimes it's hard for me to see "crime" as "crime" because
it's so easy to have compassion for perpetrators.

For me it's not an either/or universe anymore, it's full of
shades of gray. As to Heidi's illness, her own victimhood...

I don't know.

But it's really clear about Jacob, and she couldn't weep
for him, only herself. That sounds broken in the way N is.
No empathy.

That poor baby. Snuffed out. When so many people
would give a limb to have a baby to love.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2007, 03:36:56 PM »
You are right, Hops.......poor baby Jacob.........and by the way, what is PPD???

Everyone I know wanting to hang Heidi.  No one could see the good in the whole situation.  The only reason I could is because I knew her and could not for a minute imagine her being that way.  That is why even if it was criminal, I still think it was because she was not in her right mind.  Her husband still stands behind her and in fact, THEY are still listed in the phone book.  Same house.  He shouldn't have left her that day.........I guess he feels guilty for not noticing that she was tired.  You know, I also looked up that Munchasen by Proxy (sp?) and that is a weird one, as well.  But that is another subject..
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

Hopalong

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2007, 03:57:15 PM »
Good for you for loving her regardless, Kel. That's the whole point anyway. She should be loved.
Punishment isn't supposed to cancel out love, but people are confused about that.

PPD = post-partum depression

PPP = post-partum psychosis (I think)

hugs
Hops
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dandylife

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2007, 04:19:27 PM »
From the Dateline story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10644398/
(This is horrifying - warning for triggers do not read if you can't handle)


Prosecutors pointed out she’d lied to police dozens of times before her facade finally crumbled six hours after Jacob was reported missing— and she made a surprising proposal, to this detective.

(court transcript) Det. Bjornson: She then told me, or asked me, if I could find her a cigarette.

Prosecution attorney: What’d you tell her?

Bjornson: I stated I would try. And she said if I could find her one, she would help me.

Detectives testified it was shortly after Heidi Anfinson had gotten a cigarette, about 10:30 that night, that she finally led police to Saylorville lake.

In these waters, 16-miles from the Anfinson home, lay the object of their search.

Lt. Dawson: She pointed out to them an area where she said she’d put Jacob.

And what investigators found left even hardened veteran detectives, shaken.

Harvey: I went over and observed the baby. It appeared to me it was in one foot of water. It was laying on its back.

Lt. Dawson: There was no signs of life. There was no reason for us to move it.

Had Heidi Anfinson put her own son in a car, driven him to a lake almost 30 minutes away, placed baby Jacob underwater, and simply left him there?

Sarcone: There’s no question in my mind that that baby was submerged in that water, he was still alive, and that he was drowned in that lake.

There seemed to be every indication that Heidi Anfinson loved her child. Now, she was accused of purposely drowning him. What could have happened? Was there some medical explanation? Some post-partum depression that contributed to her actions? The defense would get its turn later. For now, the prosecution would move to tell the jury what really happened that day. Heidi Anfinson’s version, and then theirs.

Det. Bjornson: She stated that it was an accident.

The detective who gave Heidi the cigarette that helped crack the case interviewed her for a third time that day, after she led them to the lake.

She claimed it all started as she was giving Jacob a bath in an infant tub, in the kitchen sink, when the phone rang.

(Police tape) Heidi Anfinson: I took it out on the deck, which was asinine, because I wanted to smoke and I’d been trying not to smoke around the baby. And I had taken the sponge thing out because I just thought he’d fit in there better. And when I came back his face was turned to the side and he was blue. And I just, I freaked.

Bjornson: Was he underwater or above water when you found him?

Heidi Anfinson: His face was underwater. He had slipped down.

Police: What do you give me the approximate time from when you left Jacob until the time you came back to him and found him underwater?

Heidi Anfinson: Seven, ten minutes…

Sarcone: To leave a child for a telephone call, when you have a handheld phone, you can stay right there. But to go out and smoke cigarettes, that’s just reprehensible as far as I’m concerned.

But prosecutors then pointed out that Heidi told a different version of the story to her mother— not mentioning the cigarettes or phone call, but saying a dizzy spell caused her to leave the baby unattended.

And then, Heidi told her sister-in-law something else— that she may have just dozed off.

Sarcone: The story kept evolving and changing, and our argument was the truth never changes.

Hoda Kotb, Dateline correspondent: What happened that day?

Sarcone: There’s a million twisted reasons why someone kills someone. I think probably something happened there that maybe he was fussy and she may very well have just lost some control. If it was purely accidental, she knew how to call 911 and she didn’t do it.

In fact, the state pointed out that the week before Jacob’s death, his parents did call 911 in a panic, when the baby stopped breathing.

And the prosecutor went even further, implying that a lesion later found on Jacob’s brain led him to believe that the baby stopped breathing because maybe, just maybe, his own mother had tried to kill him that day too.

Sarcone: I think something happened happened with that child where he had a lack of oxygen.

Kotb: So you’re saying at six days, the baby suddenly somehow isn’t breathing, and then winds up dead at 15 days, all spells abuse?

Sarcone: I think you can connect those things together.

After implying Heidi was abusing her son, showing that the Anfinsons had called 911 before, and listing Heidi’s repeated lies, prosecutors then moved to the heart of their case.

Investigators testified there wasn’t  nearly enough water in the infant tub for baby Jacob to have drowned as his mother claimed. One of America’s most prominent pathologists agreed.

(court transcript) Dr. Michael Baden, pathologist: In my opinion in 40 years, I’ve never seen a baby drown in that type of device.

Dr. Michael Baden has done 20,000 autopsies. He’s been called on to help investigate the assassinations of President Kennedy, and Martin Luther King. 

He said it was clear to him that baby Jacob did not drown in the tub.

Why? An autopsy revealed microscopic plants from the lake deep in Jacob’s lungs. That meant, the doctor testified, that the baby was still breathing when his mother placed him in the lake. 

It meant, he said, that Jacob’s death was a homicide.

And to back up that theory that Jacob died in the lake, the medical examiner who performed the autopsy, Doctor Francis Garrity, then took the stand.

The medical examiner said he found evidence that the baby’s heart was still beating in the lake. The autopsy showed bacteria from the lake in the baby’s heart blood; bacteria that were not in the tap water at the Anfinson home.

But the medical examiner wasn’t done. And what he was about to reveal only added to the prosecution case for murder: It turns out that on top of Jacob’s body, police found 2 large rocks, weighing more than 25 pounds. Rocks anchored the body in the water, put there with such force, the medical examiner said, that they caused a wound on the baby’s spine.

And there was something else. The baby was also tested for drugs and alcohol. There was, the ME explained, alcohol in the baby’s bloodstream. So much alcohol, he said, that it contributed to the baby’s death.

And the ME went on to say that the baby suffered some injuries caused by wildlife and some from another source: Gashes on the baby’s head and neck, apparently made by a sharp instrument.

Dr. Francis Garrity, medical examiner: It could be a piece of broken glass, it could be a kitchen utensil – anything that has the ability to cleanly incise the skin such as I see here.

Sarcone: Those all add up to me, to clearly demonstrate malice.

Kotb: Do you think she’s that malicious?

Sarcone: There’s no question in my mind.

With that, the prosecution wrapped up its case, claiming Heidi Anfinson was an unemotional, cold-blooded killer, who slashed her baby with a sharp instrument, and told lie after lie to cover up her actions.

Now, it was up to the defense: How could it prove to the jury that Heidi was no killer?

"All things not at peace will cry out." Han Yun

"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2007, 04:34:24 PM »
Yep.  That is why everyone convicted her and sent her to jail.  If I didn't know her and read those transcripts I would totally agree.  A cigarette smokin, awful baby killer.  But if you continue to do research you will find out that expert witnesses testified against the other expert witnesses that said the baby did not have alcohol in its blood or microscopic organisms in his lungs.  And the gashes on the baby's head?  They say Heidi stabbed the baby.  Someone else testified that the talons of eagles made the cuts.

Whatever the true story, imagine you knew the woman.  Wouldn't you want to believe she freaked and tried to cover it up?  One of our former co-workers speculated that she went out on the porch to smoke a joint.........can you imagine being high and finding your child under water?  No matter what happened, whether she is a horrendous killer or had PPP (which is where I am leaning....) or if one lie led to another and to another and to another and she got herself screwed.......for years.  I told my daughters no matter what happens, the truth is always the best bet.  Covering up anything will come back to bite you.  Also ALWAYS call 911.  It would have been so much better for her to admit she was negligent then to think she could outwit the police and cover up an accident...or crime!!!

And as far as us...................was she sick in the mind?  And do we have days when we are sick in the mind???  Can you mind over matter a brain that is chemically unbalanced?
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

dandylife

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2007, 04:40:48 PM »
OC,
You sound very bright and clear thinking! It's horrendous to know someone who turns out to be capable of this (even if it turns out she was somehow mentally compromised). I feel so badly for you.

Good for you for using this instance to learn/teach others.

The only way to get the word out about ppd/ppp is education!

Dandylife
"All things not at peace will cry out." Han Yun

"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

Ami

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2007, 07:50:17 PM »
Dear Kelly,
  . I am so sorry about your friend .. It is a terrible thing for everyone involved --including people like you who knew her as a friend.It must be an awful shock.Maybe, there was more drug use than people knew.
   I have thought about the topic of mental illness .I heard a pastor talking about mental health. He said that your mental health will be as "good" as it approximates what the Bible tells us to do as human beings.  Another Bible teacher calls the Bible-- the Owner's manual for humans                  My family was agnostic. I found God b/c I hit bottom  b/c of an N mother.  However, I really began to heal when I started taking the "Scriptures" as "medicine.   I took,"You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free" 8 months ago. I think  that I have,finally, faced the truth of my mother.
  Now, I am "taking,"Perfect love casts out fear". I have fear surrounding me all the time. It is unceasing.I have to believe that this Scripture will work the same way that the other one did.If God is not there for me ,life has no meaning anyway(IMO)
   I am trying to follow the Bible as a path toward mental health. It tells us that we should not fear. Maybe the root of all mental illness is "fear? If you start dissecting it, fear seems to be at the bottom of mental dis---ease.I have so many fears.
   For me, I am  relying on the path of taking God's love for me as a "weapon" to fight fear.At the end, I want to be filled with love -- not fear. I think that they are opposite of each other.
                                                                                                         Love  Ami
   

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   I
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 07:53:07 PM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2007, 07:52:13 PM »
Well, the whole thread was started when I got to thinking about brain chemistry, depression, post partum, etc.  Periodically I look up the newest on Heidi although this all happened in 1998 I think....that means it has been 9 years and Heidi is now 47.  Her family totally believes it was an accident and she freaked.  If this is true, then Heidi is locked up unjustly.........that is a nightmare.  Can you imagine if something like this happened to you?  I mean think about it.  If people know you have problems with an N and something happens to them....I guess you would be a likely suspect.  This part of me - this anger and obsessing and wanting revenge makes me wonder..................are we setting ourselves up??  Just like Ami's thread about stomach problems.  We live day in and day out with this angst within us.......................we are eaten up alive with the anxiety of knowing that we have been in this prison for years and there is no way out of it.  We talk about reaching outside the prison and grabbing the keys which are within arms length but we often choose to stay in our prison.  We have the right to get out and to get better.  Wrong or right, Heidi does not have the right to leave her prison.  She will be there until she is 80 or so.  Think about that....you go in at 40 and get out at 80.  That is truly the last half of your life.  And if you are innocent, you have been to hell and back TWICE.  Once because the baby you wanted and prepared for died by your neglegence...how can you live with yourself.  And twice because you are labelled a vicious baby killer and have to live in prison for 50 years......your husband and family are there trying to love and support you but they do not have to live in prison.  We are all here to love and support each other - but we do not have to live in that prison.  We are free to make our minds to walk out.  But then there is the brain chemistry angle............what if our brain will not let us out!!??
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2007, 07:58:41 PM »
Am:  Here are some of my favorite Bible verses.

 Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.   

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.  In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.

 Do not be anxious about anything but in everything by prayer and petition with thanksgiving make your requests known to God.  And the peace of God which transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

confused2

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2007, 08:59:10 PM »
What a thought overcomer! i look forward to all responses. Mental illness,or, a tremendous amount of stess, can make the best man, or, woman do strange things?

Sweetgrass


isittoolate

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2007, 10:26:45 PM »
Everything else aside, we had an experience with an N  That is a terrible trauma.
now we are trying to overcome the pain and hurt and become as 'normal' as possible.
There were 5 Ns in my life--father, sister, son-in law (ex) and one of my own that sucked me in. [That's 4, but my grandson is living with his father and is being influenced to having the "N traits.]

I never thought of myself being menatally ill, but after all I has been through I truly beleived that I had to have a problem, in allowing these Ns to control me. There it is:  lack of self-esteem & feelings of self-worth + more?

So now I am in therapy to fix myself asnd be more aware of things I never learned when young, to be more assertive, and live my life on my terms and no one else's.

I think that is clear enough and only a therapist can help to dissect my past and put me together.

Some people say, "Stop living in the past", but "An unexamined life is a wasted life".

Love Izzy

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« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 10:28:39 PM by isittoolate »

Hopalong

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2007, 11:57:57 PM »
Me too, CB:

Quote
I think there is a case to be made for guarding our thoughts.  No action happens without first being thought.  If a person spends a lot of time thinking:  I hate this person, I wish they were dead, I could kill them--I think that's a really bad idea.


I think a person might confuse voicing anger (a healthy thing, part of reclaiming the self) with ruminating and obsessing on revenge, hatred and retaliation. In some ways the psychology movement (to which I owe so much) also has a dark side, in that untrammeled anger became almost worshipped as a sign of freedom. It's like indulging your dark side. It's good to see it and own it and now and then perhaps vent it. But not to live by it, imo.

love
Hops

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2007, 10:44:38 AM »
Profound C B!  I think if Heidi is innocent of killing her baby but the chemical imbalance made her react in an irrational way then she is screwed.  I cannot imagine she is like Andrea Y and felt compelled to kill her child.  And I hope that us Co N people can learn from others that it is important to heft help if we need help.
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"