Author Topic: Are we mentally ill?  (Read 17706 times)

guest101

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2007, 06:01:38 PM »

P. S. for myself, I have a great amount of sympathy for anyone who feels so helpless and out of control that they resort to violence although I wouldn't tolerate that behavior from anyone in the least.  I've been both the abuser and the abused so I'm not prepared to condemn anyone for their choices - I don't see myself as "different" only fortunate.  All of us will resort to certain behaviors so long as we remain unaware that we have other choices. 

People who are in pain make painful choices and usually end up hurting themselves and those who are closest to them, whether it is as "grave" as murder or as "benign"  as hurtful words.

WRITE

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2007, 08:08:35 PM »
I have a great amount of sympathy for anyone who feels so helpless and out of control that they resort to violence

my point is that people don't resort to violence out of helplessness and lack of control, violence is the result of a belief that violence is okay as a solution, that someone is entitled to be violent and that the consequences of their violence to others are not as important as the gratification of self.

Yes, the people add to their own pain of course, when they are caught and the consequences are imposed from without, that does not explain or excuse abuse.

They can easily throw up their hands and try to explain and justify their actions, and we may even have sympathy with some of their perspective if we have compassion. It doesn't make any difference to the way violence needs to be viewed.

All of us will resort to certain behaviors so long as we remain unaware that we have other choices.

I think a clearer societal 'message' of 'violence is wrong' would help with that, instead of the mixed and coded messages we use now.

However the implication that people with mental illness cannot control themselves or have increased violent impulses is clearly a misperception.

whether it is as "grave" as murder or as "benign"  as hurtful words.

for the Christians here Jesus said 'it has been said thou shalt not kill, I say when you show another contempt you commit murder in your heart'.

The willingness to not see another as entirely human or equal to oneself, to prioritise self over another, and to be willing to hurt the other- this is the root of violence and abuse.

It's not about having control of one's own life so much as wanting control over another's.

Overcomer as guest

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2007, 08:29:56 PM »
mof4- I was the one who jumped into the drugs and alcohol thing - nothing you said.  I just think that sometimes when we are so stressed and then we exacerbate those problems with drugs or alcohol, we are just setting ourselves up.  When my other friend speculated that Heidi was high - that is what got me to thinking about that.

Izzie:  Same here.  I do not consider myself mentally ill OR completely ok.  I believe the brainwashing and abuse I have suffered has made me second guessing myself a lot.  Also, I agree that when we are around crazy making behavior we do indeed feel crazy.

Write:  I also agree that just because someone is diagnosed with a mental illness, does not predispose them to violence.  I know many a person who has NOT been diagnosed but have huge anger issues.  I would be more aware of them and their behavior than someone who has a bonafide mental illness and is managing it with medications or diet. 

And Guest....I guess I do not have sympathy for those people who cannot control their anger and resort to violence.  I know it really upset me when my ex would punch a hole in the wall or bust a bunch of stuff....I figured if he could get that angry, maybe he could do something to hurt me.  I also saw road rage in him as well as my current husband.  I certainly would never condone that behavior - I believe people who get caught up in road rage are setting themselves up to be shot at a stoplight!!! :shock:

dandylife

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2007, 08:35:55 PM »
"It's not about having control of one's own life so much as wanting control over another's."

Yes, Write, and this assumes that the person has the ability to be logical and make a logical choice.

Have you read, "We need to talk about Kevin?" by Lionel Shriver?

It's a novel in journal form about a mother whose son committed an atrocity on the Columbine scale. She wracks her brain, blames herself, etc.

Why, how could he do it?

There have been numerous studies done recently proving that the teenage brain does not have the capacity to make logical decisions like adult brains do.

What about people who have low IQ's?

There are people on death row with very low IQ's and there are always outrages before the final injection or lever is pulled.

I think Overcomer has brought up a lot of great questions. I don't think she really thinks the answer(s) is going to come here from this board. Awareness is key.

To educating the masses about mental illness. To erasing the stigmas that still exist.

To educating the masses about PPD. To getting the word out about bringing babies to a hospital to surrender with no fear of prosecution as long as the baby is safe.

I am sad for the baby that died. I think only one person expressed sympathy and outrage about the baby's death. That is so so sad. It's outrageous. Where are the advocates for the innocent? The truly and totally innocent?

It's a horrendous, horrendous issue. There are no answers here. Only more questions. And an urge to educate.

Dandylife
"All things not at peace will cry out." Han Yun

"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

WRITE

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2007, 08:54:52 PM »
I know many a person who has NOT been diagnosed but have huge anger issues.

we use this label now as though it somehow excuses and explains rage and violence.

It simply means person is prepared to act out their emotions with disregard to the consequences to others.

What about people who have low IQ's?

yes there are people on death row with low IQ, just as there are people with high IQ.

Sometimes people are on death row whose mitigating factors have not been fully explored, or who have experienced unfairness in the justice system.

Many people myself included would argue that death row in itself is a form of institutionalised violence, and an inappropriate way of trying to administer justice.

the teenage brain does not have the capacity to make logical decisions like adult brains do.

yes, and some teenagers do stupid and irresponsible things sometimes, yet many don't.

There are no answers here. Only more questions.

No, there are answers Dandylife.
The answers are that human life is sacrosanct and no one has the right to take it or hurt it.

If a person does that they need to take responsibility for what they did and where they can make amends and change, change themselves and their society.


dandylife

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2007, 09:04:08 PM »
"No, there are answers Dandylife.
The answers are that human life is sacrosanct and no one has the right to take it or hurt it.

If a person does that they need to take responsibility for what they did and where they can make amends and change, change themselves and their society."

I agree, Write, as a "logical", "normal IQ", "mentally normal" person.

I think Overcomer is speaking to the fact that there seem to be many people out there who are not in those categories - and how should they be treated. If death row is not an option, what is? How to reach the minds of the people who have done the unspeakable? should they BE categorized? If so, how?

When will it stop? How will it stop? CAN it stop? This is larger than any of us here.

These are the questions there are no pat answers to.

Dandylife
"All things not at peace will cry out." Han Yun

"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

guest101

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2007, 09:13:41 PM »
Quote
It's not about having control of one's own life so much as wanting control over another's.

Only a person who feels they have absolutely no control over their own life wants to control anothers life.

Anyone who seeks to hurt another does so because of their own internal pain, IMO

Christianity teaches us that there is no "big" or "little" sin.

I don't think anyone suffers abuse on a daily basis as a child and emerges mentally well.  Perhaps funtionally, capable and able but not "well".

dandylife

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2007, 10:47:33 PM »
Did ya'll see this latest?

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/internet-obsessed-couple-let-kids-starve/20070715195409990001

Headline: Internet-Obsessed Couple Let Kids Starve

Dandylife
"All things not at peace will cry out." Han Yun

"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

isittoolate

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2007, 10:58:58 PM »
That is just an awful, terrible, unbelievable, sorry, story of abuse!!
Izzy

dandylife

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2007, 09:30:55 AM »
Yes, but in this case, the children were found and helped in time.

Dandylife
"All things not at peace will cry out." Han Yun

"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

WRITE

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2007, 05:43:07 PM »
I agree, Write, as a "logical", "normal IQ", "mentally normal" person.

I think Overcomer is speaking to the fact that there seem to be many people out there who are not in those categories


I don't believe anyone is 'normal' or 'logical' any more than anyone else!

I work with people every day who are mentally impaired, their behaviour might seem strange at times but mostly they are just differently normal for them!

'Us and 'the other'.

How many people here have said over and over 'oh no, I don't have a mental illness' as though to even suspect they might would be unthinkable.

That's the taboo of it speaking inside us.

This is larger than any of us here.

we often don't tackle these subjects except as salacious debating topics or something akin to a 'penny-dreadful' because we don't want to see that we are all the same and all equally responsible for self and the society we live in.

Years ago it was too difficult and too dreadful to contemplate that children got raped and molested in their own homes or churches by otherwise apprently normal responsible fathers and clergy....then we went through a brief era where well-meaning people bandied the topic around hysterically and false allegations were added to the mix....now we have a more balanced view that child protection is the main issue of the topic, and prevention policies are becoming norms, with increased education and awareness of what constitutes abuse but understanding that we need a situation where no one will ignore a child in need, but also parents and childcarers feel comfortable to be close to children.

Just because it's a difficult issue doesn't mean we shouldn't tackle it, and brave people and good organisations do tackle it and try to come up with balanced outcomes.

My whole objection to this thread has been the idea that the people who do unspeakably bad things- evil things for want of an unpopular notion- are mentally ill.

They might well be, or have 101 other problems. That does not mean the rest of the population with any of those problems do those things, they don't.

Yet every time someone commits an atrocity we delve into mental illness as though it's some kind of universal explanation.

Must be. How else could we explain it.

I'll explain it- it's when people's lack of foresight joins with their stupidity and cruelty and unwillingness to take responsibility for themselves or deny themselves something.
I worked with criminals for years and the one thing that was always in the forefront of my mind was how pointless so many of the actions were, overall, even the big ones always boiled down to small inconsiderations.

So yes, I agree with this: Christianity teaches us that there is no "big" or "little" sin.
and coincidentally my scripture reading today was:

whoever is unjust with very little will also be unjust with much.

( Luke 16 )

The more well you are when you're well, the more well you'll be when you're sick/stressed/drugged/whatever other factor affects ability to make decisions....



Certain Hope

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2007, 06:08:03 PM »
Write,

Well said.  Thank you for your insight on this topic... I've never felt so close to an understanding of these difficult issues.
Just a disclaimer -
I do not believe that "mental illness" is demonic in nature, but evil often is.
I do not believe that "mental illness" causes people to commit crime.
I do believe that evil is at the root of all criminal behavior and that evil is always a choice.

Hope



Overcomer

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2007, 10:38:01 PM »
Well I would have to say that I have learned a lot from all your points and counter points!
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

lighter

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2007, 12:07:45 AM »
Holey cheese, Kelly.

This is such an awful story....


I can't imagine doing what Heidi did.... under any circumstances. 

Post Partum Depression included.

Just plain'ol accidental death....


I can't.

When I read the part about the lake bacteria in that little guy's lungs, I could hardly read on.

Do you think she put him in that lake while he was alive?

Do you think he had alcohol in his system?

Do you think he had injuries from a sharp object on his neck and head, caused by Heidi?

I can't imagine it, but I don't think anyone else did those things.... if they happened.

It sounds like she may have been suffering from some psychotic break, not depression. 

Part of me thinks that maybe she's a very charming sociopath, who was very popular in her job, but couldn't deal with caretaking another human being. 

Does that sound awful?  That's what occurred to me. 

bigalspal

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2007, 07:00:01 AM »
Hi Kelly,
Didn't A&E do a story on this case? (sorry if this question has already been answered).
I'm sure I saw it on TV.
In any case, what an awful story!
(((((((((((((KELLY)))))))))))))
Bigalspal
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