Author Topic: Understanding - and/or leaving - MEN!  (Read 6734 times)

Nic

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Hi Rose..
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2004, 07:17:48 PM »
Dear Rosencrantz,
Just now had the opportunity to glance at this thread...yes Rosie, emotional convenience..loaded but true..has a different meaning ( convenience) for everyone.
As a man, I have to let you know there's only so much you can know about men..the rest you have to accept.  Never mind the how to books on approaches, differences..it's enough for you to know that we just are not the same..vive la difference!
i think growing older/bolder/wiser etc. is all about acceptance.  There are no formulas it seems..just clues on how things can go better.  How much can you know another person, man or woman..like it or not we all have our own agendas!  And you know..no matter what you or I do, men and women will always get married for the right reasons and have children..for the right reasons!  and make mistakes, and fail, and fall and recover..what we don't understand about our mistakes and successes is our destiny.  I'm more and more convinced of that..
when everything came apart ( or together?) for me, it was only after i had verbalized inside myself that I wasn't fighting anymore..that I was launching my raft down the stream of life..that I was letting go..soon after my destiny ( this is the only way I can describe it at this time) caught up to me.
C came into my life at the right time, not as a rebound..at the right time..and the rest WILL BE history.  I'm not going through a tranquil, guilt free time here!  BUT i'm not giving in to those passing emotions that have literally plagued me all my life...i'm no longer expecting perfection from myself in order to satisfy the expectations of those who instilled those reflexes in me.

I'm exploring and creating who I am...whereas before I was stagnating in an illusion of perfection which was nothing more than a conditioned response a la Pavlov.

I'll say it again..i'm determined to be happy and no longer obsessed with being perfect in order to maybe experience some  joy and peace in my life.  I have to take the risk, or dare to be myself..if i'm wrong or misguided i've resolved to treat it as a learning experience and nothing more.  As C has said to me when i've been stressed out right smack in the middle of passion..."it's ok..just let it happen"

I'm letting it happen..which also means allowing it to happen.  It's at a deep and personal level and has nothing to do with being irresponsible.  Again it's not do it 'cos it feels good, it's do it SO IT FEELS GOOD!  Guilt sucks Rosencrantz and so does shame...i'm fighting those two demons and am finding out that it is vital to my finally loving myself.

Just let it happen, It's ok..
Love Nic :)
All truth passes through 3 stages
First it is ridiculed, second, it is violently opposed,third,it is accepted as being self evident
-Arthur Schopenhauer

Anonymous

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Understanding - and/or leaving - MEN!
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2004, 07:49:41 AM »
Quote from: rosencrantz
Yes, CG, he has occasionally surprised me and come up trumps in circumstances I'd never have credited.  But he has occasionally devastated me as well.  Here goes...he 'takes' things which are 'mine'.  

(I can just hear CG guffawing over suggestions about him taking my clothes or makeup - Was I right?  Stop it CG!  :wink: I don't mean that at all!!!)

The feelings of devastation I feel are, I'm sure, one of those childhood things again.  But on the other hand, he does do it.  He takes 'space' which is special to me and then messes it up.  I wonder why he needs to do that.  He'll help himself to most of what's on a plate rather than check how many it's for.  He hands me a piece of shit and expects me to crow over it in admiration and wonder like he just gave the teacher the best apple out of the orchard that he picked himself.  I don't want to be his mother - I resent what he does, I resent his lack of insight.  I wonder what 'good' thing he might think he's expressing...

R


Hi Rosencrantz, there is a lot in here to understand but I immediately connected on some level with these comments of yours about you H. This type of thing happens with my H. He's not introverted now. He was, very, but so much of me has rubbed off on him. hahahahaha

No, actually I think he was a closet extrovert, but all of his hang-ups and insecurities made him use an introvert persona to cover up ever looking stupid or being laughed at. He hates being laughed at. Well I laugh at him all the time hahahaha, cause I laugh all the time, so now he's just so used to it and (maybe in a kinky way) has learned it's not so bad, or at least it's not the end of the world.  :wink:

But he always takes what's mine and 'just doesn't get it'.

Like if I buy a new book, he'll take it and start reading it without asking. Not from cover to cover though, just a bit here and there. Then when I want it I can't find it. And then after he's skimmed it, sometimes he'll tell me its crap, and ask me why I'm wasting my time reading it. :x I love biographies and he'll ask what I could possibly find of interest about Eva or Rubin or whoever, and give me some superficial, completely ignorant, un-read opinion about them.

Meanwhile, I've climbed into the psyche of the subject of the bio book and bonded with them, sometimes almost feel them inside me, and almost can't help hating him attacking them ignorantly and uselessly.

I've gotta have music playing. It helps me think and relax. He'll come in just go over and turn my music off or right down. He says because he doesn't like it. I could never do this to anyone. He says things like, "I can't think with that crap on."  :x

Then, and this has often been the big one. He'll take credit for my work if he can get away with it. I haven't ever done this to anyone. One time, (ouch this hurt), his company wanted a new marketing script written. The one they had was failing magnificently. This area (scripts, sales and marketing) is something I've done a lot of freelancing with in the past with a fair bit of success. He knew this, (of course) and told his boss he could solve their problems and would do a good one for them. No charge. What a hero. He saved the company and saved the day.

No worries, he came home with the old one (script) and asked/told me to do one for his boss. I didn't want to for a whole bunch of reasons, (too long a story) mainly cause I've been my husbands sort of creativity-coach in that company, helped him pull off some pretty huge business. I got less than no recognition, such as his ego blew out of control as a result of his tremendous success our marriage & kids suffered terribly as a result blaaah blaah blaah. Let's just say he was rewarded with and rewarded himself with wine women and song.

But I eventually caved and agreed to do it if my name went on it and I got the credit. I couldn't stand the thought of them 'rewarding' him personally again. He agreed, I worked for weeks on it, he took it to work, handed it in as his own hard work, he took all the credit, and got all the accolades. Within a few short weeks of it's implementation it was directly responsible for increasinging the minimum investment dollars from new clients by 10 times. I kid you not. Now, three short years later that fund has grown from 8 to 200 million dollars, and the boss is mega mega meg rich. I wrote it shortly a couple of months before Xmas, and found out he hadn't kept his side of the deal when he refused to take me to the Co Xmas party. I couldn't understand why he didn't want to take me. He was making strange excuses, then the truth came out. Pathetic isn't it. It's all so stupid and needless.

My H has apologosed to me, and probably wouldn't  do it again I'm sure. But he has justified this by saying things like "Well you still benefitted from it by the increased commissions I earned."

But that's not the point to me. The thing that sucks to me is it's on his resume not mine.  :x  :x That was my work and it was damn good and he stole, plagiarised it from me. All sorts of stuff like that happened over the years, but I guess mostly smaller stuff, although a couple of other biggee's are hovering in the back of my mind.  :x

Or litle things like when we would go out in my car he wouldn't let me drive and would get angry if I tried to. I just put my foot down now and say, "No way, it's my car, I'm driving."

I'm learning to say no to him all the time now. Like with the music, I'm starting to tell him, "Please don't touch that music. I'm enjoying it" or "This is my new book and I don't want you to read it till I'm finished." It's not quite good enough, it's a bit like telling a child, but he does seem to respond quicker nowdays with a lot less wrangling and debating. It's a pain having to be like this but I feel I have to start somewhere. After all, I'm responsible for letting it go on for as long as it has. And he's adapting without too much fuss really now.

I really didn't see before how overly-ridiculously-stupidly-weakly-self destructively accommadating I was. All I sensed-knew was that inside, secretly, I resented even hated every saintly minute of it. Now when I say "No" when he's crowding my needs and desires out, I feel good, even though it's a pain to have to remind him. I'm taking more and more responsibility for deciding for myself what I will and won't accept, and I'm nurturing my own needs and wants, and seeing where that leads me.  

Thanks for sharing all those thoughts of yours and giving me the opportunity to hoe a row over here with you. I know this is probably nothing like your H, but your coments led me here and it's something I've never really put a lot of structured thought into before, so thanks for that.

(((HIG x 2)))

CG

PS, I just re-read through and I'm all over the show with my past and present tenses. Please excuse that, I've no time to fix, let's just say it's all a work in progress and mostly he's stopping a lot of it, but he still does some of it sometimes. Although I have to say it is greatly improved on 2 and 3 years ago. Thank goodness. :D

I just have to remain vigilant and continue re-claiming my rightful personal space and entitlements, and when, necessary remind him or even insist he respect this too. Ain't nobody gonna' stop me now :wink: no matter how long it takes.

rosencrantz

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Understanding - and/or leaving - MEN!
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2004, 12:57:09 PM »
Hi Nic - Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm glad you're 'on your way'!!   Good to see you back.  Good luck!! :)  

CG - My little bits of space seem much more insignificant.  To take your creativity as his own...he must really admire you and devalue himself to have to do that.  A great big empty hole.  It's reminding me of my mother wanting to take my confidence, believing it to be hers.  Your H  really believed his own PR didn't he!!!  Couldn't fill the hole, tho and had to do it all over again.  You're his drug, CG!!!  You wanna warn him what happened to 'Rumpelstilskin'!!!  :wink:

I think your laughter has had an interesting effect on my H!!!  I've read a couple of your 'shorts' to him including that one about the pink pussycat.   And then, soon after, he laughed at me, too!!!  Genuine laughter.  What a miracle!  What a relief!!!  I don't want to be taken too seriously.  I want to be 'me' and taken seriously but lightly!!!  There's that little twinge of joy on the horizon!!! If he can relax enough to laugh...!  

He stopped laughing a long time ago.  People thought I was good for him because the ramrod back relaxed a little; but I think others thought otherwise cos he stopped laughing.  Oh the shame again.  But I took HIM too seriously!  I can't bear the sullen moods, they last for days and I get caught up in cajoling him back out.  (Ach, my son and I play that game too - it isn't natural to him and I've just realised where he learnt it!!!)

He started meditation a few years ago - he's just got a new tape and it seems to be working miracles!!!

Hi bunny - I appreciate the 'in friendship'.  :)  I hear what you are saying - I have a little 'but' lurking on my tongue.  Have you ever thought of marriage this way :  that we marry in order to become who we must be - and mutual 'therapy' is part of it???  We listen, we learn 'how', we help and support, we offer suggestions to each other, we learn from each other.  That's how it 'should' be, could be, can be...

If I offer my H a book, I don't 'expect' him to get out of it what I want him to get out of it - he's free to become who he must.  But if it opens a door to further communication...or language we can use...then that gives hope.  We learnt about the differences between Extraverts and Introverts together early on in our marriage and it saved us untold grief and misunderstandings.  Perhaps especially so as we were each at the furthest end of the scale away from each other, such different needs of each other, of 'life'.

We have 'marriage guidance' here in the UK -  I still think that an environment in which I feel comfortable and he doesn't is less than 'fair'. You know - 'talk about your feelings'  :shock: for him; oh yeah  8) for me.  I can either take advantage of my advantage or feel resentment that he gets special treatment/more help after all the years of work I've put in!!!!!  

And I don't have the right to insist on his apple cart being upset anyway.  It's his life, his psyche we're talking about here.  Defences are there for a purpose and I don't want to be responsible for 'breaking him down' just to suit my life priorities.  :)  

Like my mother - it's all very well expecting her to not be abusive, but there are layers of pain there in her - what might it uncover for her if I demand that she be different?  It's not my responsibility or right to force her hand if I'm not prepared to be there for her as it all unfolds.  And I think I don't like the woman!!  Let sleeping nightmares lie.  I'll just work on being as whole as I can be so she can't find the way in to do the damage.  I may never achieve that of course.  

No, (back to H) he has to find his own ways, not have them imposed just cos I think they're the 'right' way.  He likes reading so reading a book won't kill him!!  

Just got to get the balance between arrogance and humility right  :wink:  Do you know what I mean ie this much knowing what's right (standing up for my own values - when I manage to work them out!!), and this much knowing how far NOT to push it (falling over the edge into 'controlling' just as much as he does)!!!  It's really hard to know where that balance lies but we both have to find it and if we find it together then that will be good.

I found thinking that through very soothing!!!
Hugs
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Nic

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Rosie
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2004, 05:00:45 PM »
Hello Nic, thanks for your thoughts ?? Glad you're on your way???Nice to see you back???Good Luck..smile??? :o

What's that all about Rosencrantz? Maybe i'm tired but I feel brushed off by that little blurb!! I'm not mad or ticked..don't get me wrong..not even miffed..but no no ..that's not you Rosencrantz.  You inquire about men and get a post from a man..albeit a Gay one ( :P ) yet a man nonetheless, and you thank me for my thoughts? Frankly i'm puzzled.  Is it that you won't go there or are you mulling over what i've written.  Is it too simple perhaps ( remember it's a lot more difficult to simplify one's life than to complicate it..ACON TO ACON, nudge nudge..) to consider that men don't really need to be understood to that degree?
I have lots of questions and would love a discussion with you on this one..perhaps I should let you fire away..I'm a guy!  In german we say jokingly: Ich bin ein Mann mit Vergangenheit!  I'm a man with a past..goes for women too..let's explore together.
I miss you at that level..let's talk 'kay?
No no..i'm not going for one little sentence at the beginning of your long post, before you run off to play with our other friends! :?
Love ya to bits!
Nic x  :D
All truth passes through 3 stages
First it is ridiculed, second, it is violently opposed,third,it is accepted as being self evident
-Arthur Schopenhauer

rosencrantz

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Understanding - and/or leaving - MEN!
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2004, 07:57:26 PM »
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

I just finally fell off the mountain.

I can't cope with all the needs that there are on this board.

GO AWAY!

By what right do you make demands of me!!!

You have demanded of me via pm in the past.  I have, at a distance, warily, met those needs.  I did not ask that you have 'need' of me.  You did not ask if I was willing.  I AM NOT WILLING.

I have spent the worst emotional month of my life coping with the feelings that came up on the anniversary of my father's death.  I surprised myself by discovering I'd 'experienced' my father in someone else on this board and lost that 'friend' as a result - work out the feelings created by one loss by creating another one.  Groan!  I've lost a friend as well as a father.  And a mother and my history all in one.  My whole life turned upside down and inside out by one simple ordinary act of dying.

I have spent a year trying to cope with the demands of my egotistical freaked-out freaking blaming manipulative mother.  A year trying to reach my cantankerous 'ornery son.  A year trying to reach an H who sulks at the drop of a hat.  A raw year on edge all the time in case I tip over into anger and rage.  Anger and rage mounting up over the years, building up into a marvellous crescendo and cascading in volcanic lava right now.

Not long ago I had to deal with someone else here who 'needed' my attention.  I did not want to play and tried to be considerate but she turned on me with venom (and craziness) - she was hurt and felt she had a right to hurt me - and all sorts of exhausting rubbish came out of the woodwork as a result.

I've just been trying to deal with somebody else's feelings about being ignored - meaning why aren't I attending more, I'm bad for ignoring her.  The madness of the presupposition that I am.  Just squeak past that one still intact - barely - I probably lost another friend because I was 'seen' not to pay enough attention and I'm wondering 'what's going on here'???  To pay more attention can't be right - but both of them succeeded in getting LOADS of attention from me and I'm beginning to feel manipulated (even tho it wasn't consciously done).

So finally I find myself responding to far too many things to avoid yet another confrontation.

And then YOU turn up making demands to be heard.  More, more, more.  I acknowledged you.  I sent you good wishes.  I gave you a smile.  WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT.  No question mark, because really I don't want to know.

I AM EXHAUSTED.

I CANNOT BE HERE FOR EVERYBODY!  I can't even be here enough for the people I WANT to be here for, people who have given me their time, the people I owe (because I want to).  You have recently come back on this board after a long time away from it - where were you when I was in need of support???!!!  Just turn up and expect - what??!  No, I don't want to know.  You posted here in order to take.  :shock: I'm here until 1 or 2am; here for hours during the day.  There's nothing of me left.  What about my life, my family, my work???  

You have no idea about my life prior to marriage and family.  You cannot know what unhappy memories you triggered when you came back with 'news' and strange horrible jokes.  A box, none of your business, nobody else's business.  I've got enough to deal with.  The past is the past.  But no, I am not allowed.  Well, I demand!!!  You made your choices and I shall make mine.  GO AWAY.

You said : As a man, I have to let you know there's only so much you can know about men..the rest you have to accept. .  So, what more is there to communicate.  Sounds like a dead end to me.  I can't know, just accept.  So I accept not knowing.  End of communication.  What's more to say.

I cannot look after other people's feelings to the extent they want.  I cannot 'contain' any more of what other people decide I'm here for.  1 then 2 then 3 - who's next?

I 'contribute' to threads; other people contribute to 'mine'.  That's all there is, that's all there need be.  There is no obligation to respond to each and every post in reply.  There isn't time enough.  This board is taking over my life.  Hours and hours and hours trying to meet 'needs' and soothe hurt feelings.  Feelings other people should take their own responsibility for, not me.  I'm exhausted and worthy of ridicule.

When I first arrived here, I spoke when something spoke to me.  Then people started to ask for help behind the scenes.  I responded very inadequately and in great effort and discomfort.  I can't help 'on demand' or when I 'try' to do so.  Like CG cannot be humourous on demand.  I can only reach out when something in me is switched on.  Some people 'switch' me on; some posts 'switch' me on.  Light bulbs go off.  And sometimes my 'switching on' is not experienced as a positive thing and then there's hell to pay.  

AND I'm dealing with a work scenarios of two years' duration where management has been colluding with staff to harrass and verbally abuse me.  So many mixed messages, it's a wonder I'm still standing.  Even my healer and cleaner cross so many boundaries I'm cross-eyed.

ENOUGH!

Who are the bloody Ns around here???  

Me, considerate?  Considerate, no more.  I'LL be the N in everybody else's life.  N - here I am - an N - my life, my feelings, my needs.  Me, first.  Bugger off to the rest of you.  Well done.  You finally got rid of me.  The straw which broke the camel's back.
R

Really, Nic - wouldn't you rather have had just one little sentence?????!?
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Anonymous

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Understanding - and/or leaving - MEN!
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2004, 08:10:21 PM »
Quote
Quote from: rosencrantz
  Like CG cannot be humourous on demand.  I can only reach out when something in me is switched on.  
I know how ya' feel  :x Go with it. :D  :D

Quote
Really, Nic - wouldn't you rather have had just one little sentence?????!?
hahahahahahahahahaahahah

Go Rosencrantz. Define away baby. Set your own boundaries. :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D

CG

Anonymous

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Understanding - and/or leaving - MEN!
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2004, 08:33:06 PM »
Quote from: rosencrantz
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

I just finally fell off the mountain.

I can't cope with all the needs that there are on this board.

GO AWAY!

By what right do you make demands of me!!!

You have demanded of me via pm in the past.  I have, at a distance, warily, met those needs.  I did not ask that you have 'need' of me.  You did not ask if I was willing.  I AM NOT WILLING.

I have spent the worst emotional month of my life coping with the feelings that came up on the anniversary of my father's death.  I surprised myself by discovering I'd 'experienced' my father in someone else on this board and lost that 'friend' as a result - work out the feelings created by one loss by creating another one.  Groan!  I've lost a friend as well as a father.  And a mother and my history all in one.  My whole life turned upside down and inside out by one simple ordinary act of dying.

I have spent a year trying to cope with the demands of my egotistical freaked-out freaking blaming manipulative mother.  A year trying to reach my cantankerous 'ornery son.  A year trying to reach an H who sulks at the drop of a hat.  A raw year on edge all the time in case I tip over into anger and rage.  Anger and rage mounting up over the years, building up into a marvellous crescendo and cascading in volcanic lava right now.

Not long ago I had to deal with someone else here who 'needed' my attention.  I did not want to play and tried to be considerate but she turned on me with venom (and craziness) - she was hurt and felt she had a right to hurt me - and all sorts of exhausting rubbish came out of the woodwork as a result.

I've just been trying to deal with somebody else's feelings about being ignored - meaning why aren't I attending more, I'm bad for ignoring her.  The madness of the presupposition that I am.  Just squeak past that one still intact - barely - I probably lost another friend because I was 'seen' not to pay enough attention and I'm wondering 'what's going on here'???  To pay more attention can't be right - but both of them succeeded in getting LOADS of attention from me and I'm beginning to feel manipulated (even tho it wasn't consciously done).

So finally I find myself responding to far too many things to avoid yet another confrontation.

And then YOU turn up making demands to be heard.  More, more, more.  I acknowledged you.  I sent you good wishes.  I gave you a smile.  WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT.  No question mark, because really I don't want to know.

I AM EXHAUSTED.

I CANNOT BE HERE FOR EVERYBODY!  I can't even be here enough for the people I WANT to be here for, people who have given me their time, the people I owe (because I want to).  You have recently come back on this board after a long time away from it - where were you when I was in need of support???!!!  Just turn up and expect - what??!  No, I don't want to know.  You posted here in order to take.  :shock: I'm here until 1 or 2am; here for hours during the day.  There's nothing of me left.  What about my life, my family, my work???  

You have no idea about my life prior to marriage and family.  You cannot know what unhappy memories you triggered when you came back with 'news' and strange horrible jokes.  A box, none of your business, nobody else's business.  I've got enough to deal with.  The past is the past.  But no, I am not allowed.  Well, I demand!!!  You made your choices and I shall make mine.  GO AWAY.

You said : As a man, I have to let you know there's only so much you can know about men..the rest you have to accept. .  So, what more is there to communicate.  Sounds like a dead end to me.  I can't know, just accept.  So I accept not knowing.  End of communication.  What's more to say.

I cannot look after other people's feelings to the extent they want.  I cannot 'contain' any more of what other people decide I'm here for.  1 then 2 then 3 - who's next?

I 'contribute' to threads; other people contribute to 'mine'.  That's all there is, that's all there need be.  There is no obligation to respond to each and every post in reply.  There isn't time enough.  This board is taking over my life.  Hours and hours and hours trying to meet 'needs' and soothe hurt feelings.  Feelings other people should take their own responsibility for, not me.  I'm exhausted and worthy of ridicule.

When I first arrived here, I spoke when something spoke to me.  Then people started to ask for help behind the scenes.  I responded very inadequately and in great effort and discomfort.  I can't help 'on demand' or when I 'try' to do so.  Like CG cannot be humourous on demand.  I can only reach out when something in me is switched on.  Some people 'switch' me on; some posts 'switch' me on.  Light bulbs go off.  And sometimes my 'switching on' is not experienced as a positive thing and then there's hell to pay.  

AND I'm dealing with a work scenarios of two years' duration where management has been colluding with staff to harrass and verbally abuse me.  So many mixed messages, it's a wonder I'm still standing.  Even my healer and cleaner cross so many boundaries I'm cross-eyed.

ENOUGH!

Who are the bloody Ns around here???  

Me, considerate?  Considerate, no more.  I'LL be the N in everybody else's life.  N - here I am - an N - my life, my feelings, my needs.  Me, first.  Bugger off to the rest of you.  Well done.  You finally got rid of me.  The straw which broke the camel's back.
R

Really, Nic - wouldn't you rather have had just one little sentence?????!?


I dunno what I did there  :shock: oh well,

Hey Nic, I was trying to post to you. Just from where I sit, I was could have been a bit miffed about your comment of "Rosencrantz running off to play with her friends." :?  To me, and I don't know you very well, but I thought it sounded very bitchy. It probably wasn't intended that way :?: , but that's how I received it. I went straight into the old, takin' on other people's crap, you know the one.  :D  'Guilt & shame mode' when you said that. I thought, "Oh no, is he sayin', I and Wildflower and Portia hog Rosencrantz to ourselves? Is he saying we're a selfish little club?" Then I shook  :shock: my brain awake and laughed  :D

hahahahahahahahahahahahaah hiccup hiccup
hahahahahah snort gurgle,

and then I added a, "Oh f*ck him" to the laugh, :D  "and his bitchy side, :D  he's probably just havin' a low testerone moment.  :D  it must be from all that great  lovin' he's havin'"  :D  And then I got jealous of you and C and your new love, and then I got over it all, and forgave you, and me, and felt like a bit of a jerk for botherin' at all or givin' it 2nd thought. hahahahahahahahaahah

CG

Nic

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Rosie!
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2004, 09:18:52 PM »
Ok..so you blew your top! OK..it's fine, I accept and understand your position.  And No! you haven't lost a friend. :)
I didn't realize you were this exhausted..I now know.  Honestly, it's ok!
My approach has been to come in and out, like an old friend, thinking I could just pop in and reconnect without problems.
No need for a long dialogue on who is N or not.  In life isn't it give and take?  How can I know you pre marriage etc.? Life changes people..
I've enjoyed PMing you in the past, especially that one time I almost forgot your birthday..a distress PM from you would have been welcome at any time since it connects to my email addy. I was not here when you needed me but I was one PM away.
My life isn't this board to the extent that it is yours, i've not realized this until now.  
 I respect you and am willing ,as per your request, to respect your boundaries.
My needs are met away from this forum in a place called my world..I come here to share mostly, and that includes giving and taking.  I don't see anything wrong with that.
Perhaps I am in a taking phase, i see nothing wrong with that either, and I acknowledge from your dialogue that this disturbs you..that belongs to you.  It is a viable dialectic.
Suffice it to say that I have heard you. And, strangely enough, I don't feel rejected.  But I do feel I know and understand you better.  Again, vive la difference!
Best to you always,
Nic. :)
All truth passes through 3 stages
First it is ridiculed, second, it is violently opposed,third,it is accepted as being self evident
-Arthur Schopenhauer

Nic

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« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2004, 09:25:15 PM »
Hey CG!
yeah, you took it the right way! :) And no i don't think R is hogged by a select group..never have thought that actually.* pondering* No..never :!:
I suppose I do have a bitchy side..but not in recent posts and not today..
good for you for blowing me off, INFJ is it?
I'm fine and we're fine..just a knot in the plank..
Thanks,
Nic :)
All truth passes through 3 stages
First it is ridiculed, second, it is violently opposed,third,it is accepted as being self evident
-Arthur Schopenhauer

Wildflower

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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2004, 10:09:04 PM »
Quote
I can't cope with all the needs that there are on this board.

I AM EXHAUSTED.

I CANNOT BE HERE FOR EVERYBODY! I can't even be here enough for the people I WANT to be here for, people who have given me their time, the people I owe (because I want to). You have recently come back on this board after a long time away from it - where were you when I was in need of support???!!! Just turn up and expect - what??! No, I don't want to know. You posted here in order to take.  I'm here until 1 or 2am; here for hours during the day. There's nothing of me left. What about my life, my family, my work???

ENOUGH!


GOOOOOO Rosencrantz!!!!   :D  :D You can't take care of everyone's needs here?  No, absolutely not.  You can't be there for everybody?  That’s HEALTHY!!!!  Go take care of YOUR needs, YOUR life!!!  We're all rootin for ya!!!

Quote
I've just been trying to deal with somebody else's feelings about being ignored - meaning why aren't I attending more, I'm bad for ignoring her. The madness of the presupposition that I am. Just squeak past that one still intact - barely - I probably lost another friend because I was 'seen' not to pay enough attention and I'm wondering 'what's going on here'??? To pay more attention can't be right - but both of them succeeded in getting LOADS of attention from me and I'm beginning to feel manipulated (even tho it wasn't consciously done).


If the friend you’re speaking of losing is me, don’t worry about that, okay?  I never needed you to attend to me more.  Still don’t.  Really.  Believe me.  I’m sorry if that’s the impression you got/I made during our struggle.  Nope, didn't say you were bad for ignoring me.  Didn't even presuppose it.  And nope.  I wasn't trying to manipulate you - consciously or not.  Promise.  If you want, we can talk about that later.  If not, that’s okay, too.  Just saying this in case it helps, though that may be hard to see right now.  

If you’re speaking about losing someone else, I doubt that because what happened was between us, as I think is probably clear at this point.  Just two people having two really bad months (me, too) getting mixed up when we were exhausted, vulnerable and raw.

GO GET SOME REST!!!!!

(((hugs)))
Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2004, 06:26:54 AM »
Hi R (S)

There's a lot to be said for being 'guest' sometimes. I experience a whole heap less expectations here for a start. So I don't get the same pressure that you do.

I'm glad you wrote/spoke up at work to that person. I'm sad that it's been happening to you at work. Your letter seemed a very 'right' gutsy move and I hope it has the desired effect. Being undermined by such "furtive collusion" of harrassment and abuse is like fighting blindfolded with a one hand tied behind your back, but the other people don't have the same constraints.  :x  This is an horrid situation for you.

I hope this was not your last post here, but if it was I'd understand. You're exhausted and I believe you. If something affected me so badly I'd have to wonder about the value of participating, and what I'm achieving.

I just want to say, if I may, that it's not the forum that's the problem.
It's not the people here.
It's not the cleaner or the healer.
These are just people, often hurting themselves, who sense your insight and wisdom and the light that you have to share.
In wanting to get closer to the light, which is only too natural, they've suffocated you and exhausted you.

Or picture the man passed out on the street, people crowding round, someone shouting "Stand back, stand back, give the man some air!!"

Or, picture the Titanic. Remember that movie? Remember the women and children in life-rafts? I am such a bleeding heart that had I been charge of one of those life-rafts I'd have wanted to pick up every drowning person I rowed past and fit them in too.

But what does a responsible life-raft captain do? Pull in everybody, and risk the lives of the women and children, or row like hell past the drowning screams, block them out, focus on his responsbility, and damn well save those that he have been given responsibility for? This is my picture that I have of you anyway Rosencrantz, and of what's been happening with you.

You find it hard to row past the drowning screams. You want to save everybody you can along the way. But, if you try to do that you'll be responsible for capsizing your raft, and everyone in your raft will perish too. What will you have achieved then??? Nearly saved some strangers whilst destroying your own family????

Add the rest of the analogy, this is also a scary part.

The screaming drowning people are not going to let you pass anyway!! Not with out a fight, they are going to demand and try to get in. They're going to ruthlessly attempt to get you or your passengers out, pull children out, and get in themselves.

I'll drop that line now, I know I'm being extreme here, but the picture I have in my head is quite extreme. I'm not going to use the word boundaries. I'm totally sick of it, and I don't think it's adequate here anyway. We're not talking about boundaries. We're talking about life and death. Mental and emotional health. Not some neat little garden picket fence, which is a property boundary.

How about a huge overwhelmingly tall and solid Wall of China type of construction, over 30 feet thick, visible from the moon for cripes sake!!

You have a good heart, but (and I fear to say this) you don't know how to look after it yet. You give way too much of it out and away, and by doing this you're weakening it, and making it into a sick weak heart as a result.  

I'd say to you, if it were me, (and you've already said it yourself anyway)
work out who are the important people. And you give to them and no-one else. You determine how much, give in your own meaured way, and no more. I don't think you owe this board, or anybody here one more bit of advice. Unless you feel like it.

Just take baby, take and take and take. Drink till you're filled. Recover. give where you want, and take where you want. Put yourself on light duties. Or take off, ignore, drop the whole thing, whatever. (We'd be sad, but you know what I mean when I say that)

But just remember why you found your way here. You learned about Narcissism and lot's of stuff finally made sense to you. And you've wanted to understand, research, develop ideas, and build strength to deal with the effects of N behaviour. You can now spot N behaviour a mile away now.

But, you're also now realising there are other deeper issues in your life.
It looks to me like the N stuff just scratched the surface.  I'm not sure that it can all be dealt with here.

Because you've learned so much here do I also see in you a sense of responsibility to almost 'repay the debt' by being here for others?

You don't owe anyone here anything, not your time, not your life, nothing. Funny, I know you know that??? I don't know, but after this, I'll just keep bein' a free radical, free floatin', bumpin' round the board. I've learned a lot here today. I hope you are okay S. Take care of yourself and your yourself first and foremost. A rose, is a rose, is a rose, is a rose.

Love and warmth hugs(h) to you and your mental health(h).
CG

Anonymous

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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2004, 10:32:12 PM »
hahahahahahahha

I was refectin' on my last line up there. A rose is a rose......

And, "No, I'm not from the Isle of Lesbos." hahahhahahahaha
sending some surreptitious message here. Gee Nic, I'd have expected you to pick me up on that one!  :D  :D  hahahahahahah.

Although I love 'em, and I've a had and still have few friends who were and are.  :D I still believe no man can understand a woman fully, like another woman can. And No readers, CG doesn't stand for Closet Gertie. But I love Gertrude Stein's stuff. And I think, "she and Alice, Good on 'em!!"

CG

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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2004, 02:23:34 PM »
Quote from: rosencrantz
Have you ever thought of marriage this way :  that we marry in order to become who we must be - and mutual 'therapy' is part of it???  We listen, we learn 'how', we help and support, we offer suggestions to each other, we learn from each other.  That's how it 'should' be, could be, can be...


I used to think I should be my husband's therapist. I felt in control that way. But I wasn't competently doing therapy with him. I'm not trained for it and I'm way too close to the situation. I can't be his therapist, and he can't be mine. Marriage counselors have told me to stop being his therapist, to stop analyzing him, stop telling him what his issues were, and they were right. I think marriage is for mutual healing but not mutual therapy.



Quote from: rosencrantz
If I offer my H a book, I don't 'expect' him to get out of it what I want him to get out of it - he's free to become who he must.  But if it opens a door to further communication...or language we can use...then that gives hope.  We learnt about the differences between Extraverts and Introverts together early on in our marriage and it saved us untold grief and misunderstandings.  Perhaps especially so as we were each at the furthest end of the scale away from each other, such different needs of each other, of 'life'..


This is fine. My feeling was that he had to promise to read a book. And if he didn't read it, you felt betrayed. That was what I honed in on. Perhaps I was wrong about this.


Quote from: rosencrantz
And I don't have the right to insist on his apple cart being upset anyway.  It's his life, his psyche we're talking about here.  Defences are there for a purpose and I don't want to be responsible for 'breaking him down' just to suit my life priorities.  :) .


If his choice was marriage counseling or your leaving him, what do you think would break him down more?


Quote from: rosencrantz
Like my mother - it's all very well expecting her to not be abusive, but there are layers of pain there in her - what might it uncover for her if I demand that she be different?  It's not my responsibility or right to force her hand if I'm not prepared to be there for her as it all unfolds.  And I think I don't like the woman!!  Let sleeping nightmares lie.  I'll just work on being as whole as I can be so she can't find the way in to do the damage.  I may never achieve that of course.


This isn't like your mother. It's a different ballgame. I agree that you can't force changes on anyone. However, he is far more likely to cooperate in fixing the relationship than your mother is. So it's not the same thing.

In friendship again,  :)

bunny

rosencrantz

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« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2004, 09:19:56 AM »
Hi bunny - I have wanted to reply to your last post here for some time.  I didn't mean to leave without saying 'goodbye' after all that we shared here.

You might like to know that I stopped being my husband's therapist! It made me a much more unkind person - he'd start something and I'd just say I don't want to know, I really don't care, it's just not that important to me - it's 'yours', not 'mine'!!  To have 'let go' doesn't exactly feel good, but it's less exhausting.  I can concentrate on dealing with my own stuff instead of having to deal with his, too!

Honestly?  He'd rather be left (mercifully, as he'd see it) on his own and rot happily away in isolation than stay in the marriage and 'have' and 'deal with' feelings.  The positive thing is that he doesn't want to be the source of my unhappiness and so makes an effort to be less resentful and moody.

My relationship with my son has come on leaps and bounds.  A true miracle.  He said for the first time that he loves me!!!!!!  He said he thinks I'm beautiful.  He has begun to trust me.  He begins to allow himself to be helped and supported.  Even actively to ASK for help!  Wow!!!!!

This forum made such a difference.  All the mean things that happened were incredibly useful.  I'm glad I kept going in spite of it all - and found some answers.   And the special people I connected with here made a differerence, too.

OK - so in the finish I 'broke down' - and I've been breaking down ever since  - but the miracle is that, as a result, I'm finding a new way back in.  Letting go of all the poison that I've had to nurse for so many years.  I asked for help and it was forthcoming!  Another miracle!  

I'm on my second month of Prozac (the jury is still out on that one!) and have my own therapist.  I found someone who recognises what 'NPD' means!  And Melanie Klein.  She is kind to me - and considerate and caring!!! - and I've recounted all the awful things that happened in my last terrible experience of therapy.  I am sure that there will come a time when it's all absolutely horrible and nightmarish (how could it not be if 'transference' means I have to see my mother in her!) but I know we'll work on it together.

And I finally understood fully what my mother is all about.  She has a need to live in a world in which she is 'neglected' - so her whole being strives to manipulate the world to demonstrate that neglect.  I finally gave up struggling to prove that I am not neglecting her!  I guess it will mean that I will be less 'helpful' to other people, too!  Maybe!  I also decided that she has no right to my confidence or my equanimity, so I no longer give her the opportunity to undermine me or drive me crazy.  She's on her own.  Neglected.  So be it.

I could never have reached this point without the forum so it's a big thank you to all the people here - the goodies and the baddies :-)  

If jacmac's around, I want to say that I am very, very grateful for what I learned as a result of our interaction.  I did not intend to cause hurt or damage - I just didn't understand and I'm sorry for any that I caused.  Thanks for enabling me to understand.  It helped me a great deal.

And the names bunny, portia, wildflower and CG will probably be in my mind until my dying day.  Thanks for being my friends - even if you didn't know you were or didn't want to be!  LOL  And DG/RG/JG, of course. ;-)  Thanks for having faith in me.  And so many other lives touched and touching.  I send you healing thoughts and kind regards.

R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Portia

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« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2004, 09:47:35 AM »
(((((((((Rosencrantz)))))))))

 :D Ha ha! Just popped in not intending to post but wow :o  ha ha it’s YOU! :D

Your name will also always stay with me I think. I’m glad things have changed for you, for the better it sounds. Bumpy roads! Hey if the Prozac helps you, so be it. Me, I don’t like ‘em. But I appreciated what bunny said a while back about pills: something similar to - when she doesn’t take the pills, it feels like she’s on drugs. That was a great explanation (thanks bunny). So glad your relationship with your son has changed, I was worried, yes.

I’m quite overcome! Almost lost for words….

Okay no more posting from me today. Had to say hello though. :D  Very very good to hear from you R.  :D Take lots of care of yourself. Love, Steph (maybe more later...I dunno...I'm in shock :D )