Emotional Boundaries & Empathy

[Iphi]

okay that's hilarious mudpuppy.  I'll be needed a high performance vehicle with a powerful engine....

[teartracks]

Hi CH,

"Empathy does not mean we should take on the emotions of others.
We need to be responsible for our own emotions and let others be responsible for theirs." 

Empathy nor good sense requires that we be responsible for the emotions of others.  I've learned to speak up and say, OK, so you want to have a fit.  Go!  Have it!  Just because you're determined to have a shitty day doesn't mean I want to share it. Bye.

Good information CH.  Thanks.

OC,

 I love taking someones temp to access how we feel!

You got that right!

tt

[Certain Hope]

Mud,

For some reason, I'd attached far colder, more negative connotations in my mind to the word "pity", much like the definition which Lupita offered here:

"Pity describes a relationship which separates physician and patient. Pity is often condescending and may entail feelings of contempt and rejection."

Not sympathy, and certainly not empathy, but a "I have myself to thank that I'm not weak and subservient like you" pity (like the pharisee praying in the temple.)

Now I see per Webster's that the dictionary definition of the word is far from descriptive of N -  "sympathetic or kindly sorrow evoked by the suffering, distress, or misfortune of another, often leading one to give relief or aid or to show mercy"
Nope, no kindly sorrow, mercy, or compassion from N. You're right.
N reserves all of that for her/himself. Thanks for pointing this out! 

Beth,

I know what you mean. Feeling overly-sensitive to the moods of those around us is an awfully heavy load to bear.

Part of it may be #8 of the list which I referenced over on the Emotional Hooks thread - 
"Belief that It Must be All of My Fault that there are Problems in the Relationships"        
The summary is at this webpage:  http://www.coping.org/relations/boundar/alertb.htm#Lack

Also, behind some of this, I think, is a sort of magical thinking... the sort of non-reasoning that children use, as they feel responsible for their parents' divorce, or possibly even blame themselves for the death of someone they didn't like. I think this goes hand in hand with alot of the stuff about lack of appropriate emotional boundaries, etc... not knowing where we leave off and "other" begins.

Here's something:  "Magical thinking is the belief that your thoughts, words, or actions can have a causal impact beyond normal cause and effect--for example, believing that crossing your fingers will bring good luck, wishing bad thoughts on someone could make them sick, or the odd rituals a baseball player runs through when he goes up to bat. In today's New York Times, Benedict Carey explores the psychology of magical thinking. New research suggests that magical thinking is surprisingly common because it helps people deal with stress, boost confidence, and overcome feelings of helplessness. Too much magical thinking though can be bad news though, say, for those who suffer from obsessive-compulsive disorder."

Complete article here:  http://www.boingboing.net/2007/01/23/psychology_of_magica.html

“The question is why do people create this illusion of magical power?” said the lead author, Emily Pronin, an assistant professor of psychology and public affairs at Princeton. “I think in part it’s because we are constantly exposed to our own thoughts, they are most salient to us” — and thus we are likely to overestimate their connection to outside events.

The brain, moreover, has evolved to make snap judgments about causation, and will leap to conclusions well before logic can be applied.

As a previously very shy introvert with ocd inclinations, that last part makes alot of sense! 

Hope this helps

Love,
Hope

tt      Iphi 

[mudpuppy]

Not sympathy, and certainly not empathy, but a "I have myself to thank that I'm not weak and subservient like you" pity (like the pharisee praying in the temple.)

Gotcha; a contemptuous pity.

mud

[gratitude28]

not knowing where we leave off and "other" begins.

Yes, CH, this is exacly what I mena. Thanks for putting it into clear words.
Love, Beth

[Certain Hope]

(((((Beth)))))

This is an excellent article which might help    http://www.patiencepress.com/samples/boundari.html

I've been considering posting it over on the other board.

Here's an excerpt:

Separating my feelings from yours: When someone else’s mood controls yours, it means your boundaries need strengthening. Automatically reacting is a lot of work. Identifying it is the beginning of healing. How? Ask yourself is this my feeling or his/hers? If it is not your feeling say to yourself, "I am not whatever. S/he is whatever, (depressed, angry, numb). Or say "I’m me, and I don’t have to feel what s/he feels or think what s/he thinks." A simple but effective technique is to keep repeating it to yourself. This seems awkward and stupid at first but it really helps over the long haul. These phrases block the emotion and remind you that you are separate from others. Visualize a boundary if it helps, a fence between your garden and his or hers. When you can separate what you feel from what others feel, you will find yourself more able to tolerate other peoples’ bad feelings, even sympathize, because they will not longer control how you feel. Letting other people feel what they feel (acceptance) is a big part of intimacy. Learning to have a good day when those around you are having a bad one lifts the burden off them of ruining your day.

Another thing that helps me is to visualize a glass globe separating me from another’s emotions. When someone picks on me, sneers at me, says something painful, I see the words hit the glass, but they bounce back because, it’s their problem, opinion, attitude. I might want to examine it, but I don’t have to take it in as the truth about me, nor even react to it, because I have healthy boundaries. Criticism becomes not at all devastating, just information I may or may not find interesting or useful.

[gratitude28]

Wow, CH, I like your ideas here very much. Thank you for the article too. I agree about using some kind of mental shield - it's a very good idea... I will put it into practice.
(((((((((((((((((((((CH))))))))))))))))
Love, Beth

[Lupita]

Interesting article.

Skilled Empathy

It is not necessary to stop experiencing empathy to have a functional boundary system. It is necessary, however, to have a defined line between internal emotions, and the perceptual experience of another person's emotions. It is possible to scrutinize another's emotions, and use the knowledge of how a person feels to choose whether or not to modify your own behavior without taking the emotions on as though your own.


Skill with empathy is apparent when the empath continues to detect other people's emotions while still preserving their own uninfluenced by direct contact with the other person's emotional energies. They do not allow leakage from one to the other. They manage to retain boundaries between their own and others' emotions. To protect from confusing the source of emotions, and to protect from losing sight of one's own emotions or allowing someone else's emotions to overwhelm you, it might be wise to learn some magical and emotional defense skills.


It is my opinion that having a well-defined, functional, boundary system with adaptable shielding and filtering skills (more on those below) is exceptionally important for becoming a skilled or trained empath. Some people choose to perceive raw uncontrolled empathy as "strong" as if it's a *good* thing to get run over by other people's feelings. I disagree. I think this is poor use of the terms...certainly the perceived emotions are subjectively strong, and that is not the point, but there's no skill involved in why this is true. I believe it is dangerous to believe you are a powerful or skilled empath when you are being overridden by other people's feelings and unable to curb or control your abilities well enough to retain sanity or autonomy. This is more akin to your abilities using you than you using your abilities. It is also possible that someone may manipulate you by projecting strong emotions at you (more about empathic projection below, and don't forget to look at cording) and then flattering you by telling you that you have a strong ability in the mystical power of empathy. Meanwhile, they are abusing you by purposefully overriding your own emotions with their own, while you allow it to garner the recognition of having a very highly developed psychic ability; a very dangerous combination.


As an example, other people's emotions can be illustrated as bricks. One's personal emotional playing field can be likened to real-estate property. Boundaries of the property are the equivalent of the boundary system of the empathic person in question. The experience of everyday emapthy is like looking at the brick, hefting the weight of the brick in your hand, and understanding that it's a brick in all of its wonderful brick-ness and using the knowledge of bricks to perhaps decide on a project utilizing the brick.


A skilled empath has the ability to understand many bricks, stones, mortar, building principles, and decide how far into the property the brick should go. A raw empath takes the brick and puts it into a pile of their own bricks (thus the raw empath is no longer fully able to tell whether their house is built partially from someone else's bricks or only from their own). A highly skilled or trained empath can build a fence around the property and only allow bricks that they wish to enter the property, can make different piles of bricks and keep their own separate from those from other people. The skilled empath can install a security system, electric fence, or whatever else they deem necessary to ensure that their real estate and house are fully protected, and that they reserve the autonomy of their property.


Empathic Defenses

Shields
A shield, in my terminology, is any barrier formed a slight distance from one's person. For a good relative example, an empathic shield would be about as far from oneself as the length that one's "personal space" is from one's body...or perhaps the distance that one's aura extends from the body, or whatever arbitrary length from one's body. Shields can be choosy about the emotions or people that they block, depending on the situation and the people one is dealing with (see below in the section about filters for differentiated protections).


Armor
Armor is more like wearing a hardened second skin, and may be impenetrable or filter. It is not distant from your own person at all.


Filters
Filters are a quality of shields or armor: i.e. both shields and armor can be filters instead of hard barriers. Filters can be HIGHLY specialized and discerning, and can also be layered inside of a set of hardened shields or armor, however only things that breach the outermost defenses will hit the filter in that case. You can run around with only a filter on and be ok for the most part as far as your empathic abilities and defenses are concerned, as long as no one is actively trying to breach your defenses forcefully.


Vulnerability

All types of defenses can be breached. They are not infallible. However, as far as empathy is concerned, filters are probably the most flexible and healthy defense mechanism, apart from an internal intact boundary system. If you realize that your filters are being compromised, you can always raise layers of hardened armor or shieldhttp://kinhost.org/wiki/Crisses/GettingAFeelForEmpathys as necessary. In the meantime, filters allow you to choose what can go in &/or out of your personal space, who or what can contact you empathically or make contact with your other vulnerable subtle bodies. It works like an airlock for someone's emotional subtle body.

http://kinhost.org/wiki/Crisses/GettingAFeelForEmpathy

[Hopalong]

Yarrrrgle!

Ever see the absolutely blank look of N who is struggling to "read" you? I mean there is nothing there! It's like a satellite trying to aquire signal...

Well put, Hope.

And Mud...

acid eyes

.

Yoickers, iggggh, shudder, bleaaaaahhhh, brrrrrrr

Hops

[Tweety]

::Sigh::

Thanks for that timely post, Hope.

   yw

Well, Lighter... along with so many other discoveries, this is a totally new one for me.

To realize that empathy is NOT the sponge-soaking I'd imagined it to be... well, I'm amazed.

For a lifetime, this was all turned around in my mind as I considered my mother's version of "dignity", which appeared to me to be nothing but cold withdrawal from all emotion. Oh, she has feelings alright... I'd see them in her cold-shoulder sulks; nowhere else.
Resentment, envy, bitterness, anger, contempt, frustration.... all growing out of a root of pride - haughty disdain and arrogance.

So when I'd encounter people who seemed so emotional and full of feeling, I'd gravitate toward them, thinking that THIS was the essence of life. O good Lord, no.
Now I see how I wound up filling that mommy/therapist role with friends, time after time.
I didn't just recognize others' feelings and acknowledge them... I was feeling them FOR others, along with them, just like a sponge in the bottom of a sink full of dirty dishwater.
And I see how I became hooked into npd-ex and other N vampizoids, all demanding that I continue feeling for and with them, far beyond the point of sanity. They didn't want empathy... they wanted me to take responsibility for their filthy mess and sacrifice myself on the altar of their almighty feelings. Now I know - that is not what the God means when the Bible says to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Not even!
So I'm bound and determined to learn this stuff and not take that hook again. For me, that means identifying and naming my own emotions and not denying them for the sake of someone else's comfort or to appease... and then learning to express those emotions calmly and firmly without picking up the offenses which others may lay at my feet.

After "Respond Appropriately" comes...

Take Responsibility 

Our own response should include taking responsibility for our own feelings. 
When I take responsibility for my own feelings, I acknowledge that they are my feelings and that I have a choice about them. 
Before we can take responsibility we have to be self-aware enough to know what it is we are feeling. 

This could be as simple as saying "I feel angry when you come late to the weekly status meeting". 
Do you see how this is subtly different from saying "you made me angry"? 
That is the difference between being responsible for our feelings and being a victim of others. 
That feeling of anger is a choice that we made based on the circumstances. [/i]

Hope,
Holy smoke.............. just call me "sponge Bob" lol , wow I can totally relate to what you are saying... and They didn't want empathy... they wanted me to take responsibility for their filthy mess and sacrifice myself on the altar of their almighty feelings That was me , just give me an alter ....
Love Tweety

[Bella_French]

This is such a great thread. I still have problems with this, when it relates to loved ones especially.

My most recent episode has revolved around my partner's moodiness when he doesn't eat. In the mornings, my partner often forgets to eat, which usually results in him getting into a bad mood. What I noticed was that when he would get angry, I would take that feeling on board, and I'd find myself urging him to eat, and often making his breakfast for him. He would always thank me profusely for doing this, which just encouraged me to keep behaving that way.

I decided to change that behaviour because at the end of the day, I felt that I was I robbing my partner of an opportunity to be more in tune with his needs, and to learn to take care of them. For some reason, this is a weak point for him right now, and I wasn't really helping by stepping in.

He still sometimes forgets to eat, but he's getting much better. And I just go about my business when he is moody, and let him work through it himself. He realised that part of the problem was that many foods upset his stomach in the mornings, and we really didn't have anything suitable for him in the cupboard that he knew how to prepare (he's not much of a cook). So now when we go shopping, he really thinks about this and buys food that doesn't hurt his stomach and that is easy to prepare.

I'm always picking myself up for little things like this.

[Certain Hope]

lol... Tweety, I definitely know that Sponge Bobette sensation           
Guess I'm just a real late (nearly delinquent) bloomer here and a slow learner, to boot. 
I had no clue.
Told my husband last night, after my biggest "Aha! Moment" in quite awhile... gee, all this time I just thought people who didn't relate like I did were a bit calloused... and that included him.
I mean, he relates just fine with me and has taught me an awful lot about communication, but he just doesn't get bogged down in other peoples' stuff like I always have. I usually wind up feeling like those folks on that Ocean Spray commercial, only up to my neck.
But this is what he's been tryin to tell me, all this time... and I just wasn't ready to see it. I know it's gonna take diligent practice... and at least for now, I've blocked some emails which would threaten to put me up to my eyeballs in cranberries, but gotta stick with it!

Bella,

It's a tough area, for sure. To support, but not overly so... not enabling-ly so... and definitely not out of fear.

It's my nature to hop all around serving everyone and trying to anticipate their needs, but there comes a point where a certain amount of resentment does begin to build... lol. That's what happened in our case... because my husband was all too eager to have me hop. Fortunately, we have a solid enough relationship that I could tell him - "you know, when I do this (chore) it doesn't require an entire crew"... lol. And yes, he'd laugh, and gradually he got the point. He even picks up his supplies/tools now when he's done.
I used to do a round-up whenever a project was completed, to fetch all the miscellaneous stuff back to its proper place. Since the dog ate a hammer handle, he does better.  lol
I did  gently nag him a bit about drinking water, which he absolutely detests, and even with that, now, he'll think of it on his own and be sure to at least get a glass a day. There's a certain re-training process involved 
But yes, I do believe that we must be very aware of the line between encouraging and being Ms Fix-It where our loved ones are concerned, including our children.... I have some work to do on that, too!
Sounds to me like you're doing wonderfully, Bella... very cool that he comes with you to do the shopping! We do that too and it's always more fun (as long as he doesn't disappear into sporting goods  )

Hops... lol @ Yarrrrgle!

Love,
Hope

[Tweety]

Hope,
What a picture The Cranberry man in the water  . Wow it's great to laugh. Thank you . Its so good to see the humor in things. Doesn't always have to be so serious . But yup that pretty much soms it up
Sponge Bobett, the amazing enabling , handywoman who can fix it all, Just give me an alter to drop in front of so as to use my feelings for your own good.and than beat me over my head with them... .   
Going to sleep with a smile
Love tweety

[Bella_French]

I can totally relate, Certain Hope. Division of labor is still one of those `tricky' aspects of our relatonship that I struggle with all the time. My partner is great to talk to and very fair, so we have negotiated a fair division of labor between us. But no matter what we negotiate, I often wind up doing more because of guilt or feelings that I am lettng him down, or being a bad woman. And somewhere mixed in with those feelings is a healthier desire to help him out and nurture him.

But the reality is that we're both full-time workers and extremely busy people. We could both use a housewife, lol.

 

[Certain Hope]

Dear Tweety and Dear Bella,

Just thinking... seems that I'm learning to do what I want to do, instead of what I feel that I must do, and accomplishing more!

In other words, if an action is motivated by that driving "should!!", I don't do it.
Not until I've picked apart the should and spit out the bones.

Starting with the little things helps.

Here's one...  Overcoming my own perfectionism has meant allowing things to lie, instead of running around like a headless chicken in a frantic attempt to get organized. 
I had to accept the clutter and let it be, outside of myself... apart.... strengthening the boundary between it and me.... before I could begin rejecting portions of it, a bit at a time, and develop a more systematic approach that wasn't driven by shoulds and musts.

Okay, so my husband comes home from work and sometimes leaves his clothes & towel in a heap in the bathroom.

Step 1 was - Recognizing that heap as separate from my husband and separate from me. It is not him and does not determine his value;
it is not me and does not determine my value; it is an inanimate pile of soiled laundry which has no power to overtake me. Don't laugh now, this is for real...  ... that's how much power I'd given to other things/people/circumstances to determine my own wellbeing as well as to gauge the feelings of others toward me. ack.
Step 2 was - I stopped hovering and running around behind him picking up, even though I know there's a 50/50 chance there's a heap in there... lol.
Step 3 was - I forced myself to use the bathroom later and look directly at that pile without touching it. That's a toughie.
Step 4 was - IF that pile was still there at the end of the night, I'd carry it into the laundry room without a deep sigh and eye-rolling.
Smiling. Not a problem, honey... just end-of-the-night tidying. No blame.. not to him and not to myself.
 Detaching from the outcome.
Refusing to fall into the trap of "if you cared about me, you wouldn't (whatever)" 
or
"if I were a good woman, I wouldn't allow that pile to remain there" has allowed me to detoxify my "shoulds".
Now the shoulds are "mays" and far less demanding.

By the way, there is rarely an end-of-the-night pile anymore.
Of course, I'm dealing with an individual who sincerely cares about reducing my workload... not to mention my overall contentment and happiness. And I think that's where practice with this sort of thing must begin - with someone we trust to not deliberately take advantage. 
And really, no mate or "other" is even required for this technique.

Can we trust ourselves not to take advantage of others?
Then we can apply that virtue inwardly and stop taking advantage of ourselves... by muting the shoulds.
Lack of appropriate internal boundaries is what propels perfectionism, to me... because it's not knowing where I as a human being end, and God begins. It's the whole concept that "I am what I do"  or  "I am whatever effect I can have on others"  which needed to be trashed.
Once that is sorted, then we can practice this with our children, friends, neighbors... anyone with whom we relate regularly.

Gee, I hope that made some sense.

Love,
Hope