Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?

[Guest]

Agreed Bones. The perp looks like a nasty cow, too: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085858/Kathleen-Edward-Dies-facing-horrendous-insults-neighbour-battle-Huntingtons.html

The awful Facebook images are in that article too.

So what do we do with people like this, subhumans? Allow them to ruin countries? To kill thousands, millions of people?

Yep. Would you kill one of them if it would save thousands of victims? If it was known that you had a grade A sociopath who was going to carry out some evil plan? Oh people might talk about unintended consequences, but you know, sometimes people do actually just do the bloody right thing. Just not often enough? I dunno.

[BonesMS]

Agreed Bones. The perp looks like a nasty cow, too: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085858/Kathleen-Edward-Dies-facing-horrendous-insults-neighbour-battle-Huntingtons.html

The awful Facebook images are in that article too.

So what do we do with people like this, subhumans? Allow them to ruin countries? To kill thousands, millions of people?

Yep. Would you kill one of them if it would save thousands of victims? If it was known that you had a grade A sociopath who was going to carry out some evil plan? Oh people might talk about unintended consequences, but you know, sometimes people do actually just do the bloody right thing. Just not often enough? I dunno.

And the other question would be if we kill one of them to save thousands of victims, wouldn't we be lowering ourselves to the same level as the subhuman monsters?  This would be separate from capital punishment where the sociopath has been tried, convicted, and condemned in a court of law, (e.g. the Oklahoma City Bomber).  Otherwise, to become vigilantes and lynch mobs does not help the situation.  Just my thoughts.

[Guest]

That's one problem Bones.

Re: lowering ourselves to the same level as the subhuman monsters? I doubt that, because of 'motivation' differences. But the issues are complex. If you're interested, see the thought experiments 2, 3 and 4 on this page:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4954856.stm

I used to hold big beliefs in the law (because my life was simple?). Now I don't so much, because it's only the best (as we see it) we've got (and that heavily depends on which country you're living in). It is all so very relative. People could go on and on in thinking about such things.

Just sometimes, the right thing to do is so blindingly obvious. The law may stop us doing it. The law may be wrong. But then I'm only talking about me. I wouldn't condone or encourage any other person to do the right thing (as I saw it) because they're the one who has to live with their actions. And that's where vigilantes and lynch mobs come in - nasty brutish group behaviour. I avoid most obvious groups.

And I don't agree with the death penalty, unless there are very specific circumstances. But I don't particularly wish to go over that ground.

We may never have all of the 'facts', but sometimes we have more than enough to reach a decision.

[BonesMS]

That's one problem Bones.

Re: lowering ourselves to the same level as the subhuman monsters? I doubt that, because of 'motivation' differences. But the issues are complex. If you're interested, see the thought experiments 2, 3 and 4 on this page:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4954856.stm

I used to hold big beliefs in the law (because my life was simple?). Now I don't so much, because it's only the best (as we see it) we've got (and that heavily depends on which country you're living in). It is all so very relative. People could go on and on in thinking about such things.

Just sometimes, the right thing to do is so blindingly obvious. The law may stop us doing it. The law may be wrong. But then I'm only talking about me. I wouldn't condone or encourage any other person to do the right thing (as I saw it) because they're the one who has to live with their actions. And that's where vigilantes and lynch mobs come in - nasty brutish group behaviour. I avoid most obvious groups.

And I don't agree with the death penalty, unless there are very specific circumstances. But I don't particularly wish to go over that ground.

We may never have all of the 'facts', but sometimes we have more than enough to reach a decision.

I guess, for myself, I see both sides of the coin.  Monsters need to be removed from our midst because of what they do.  Those I classify as monsters are pedophiles, serial killers, terrorists who commit mass murder....that concept.  As for lynch mobs and vigilantes, given my ancestral history where relatives were often threatened with being lynched because of the color of their skin and not being subservient to whites, that is a very sensitive subject.  Where do we find the healthy balance?

[Guest]

Not sure if I was clear about lynch mobs and vigilantes, Bones; I abhor that kind of behaviour. I pretty much run away fast from any kind of group mentality.

So, are you asking: where do we find the healthy balance between the law at one end and lynch mobs at the other?

I'm not sure we can, as an idea, a theory, a thing to be written down and adhered to. But for actions regarding particular situations, I guess we have to individually ask where we stand, what our morals are, what our responsibilities are (to ourselves and others) and act within those thoughts.

The healthy balance is where you or I see someone being cruel and we stop them, or attempt to. The motive is rescue, not persecution (how many lynch mobs are about rescue?).

On the other hand, if I believe that drug-dealers are the scum of the earth and that I'm saving unknown 'good' people by killing them all, I deserve to be locked up - because that's persecution.

Well, that's what I think at the moment. The trouble is, my thinking could change.

[Meh]

((the end of story message is that in America a person can emotionally abuse their terminally ill underage neighbor and get away with it))----see this is why I'm not patriotic. I'm not proud to be an American. We don't have any moral values as a country. Makes me feel angry and sad. I would put it back on the judicial system. What did the judge decide...probation. Should have made an example out of her. That's what I would have done. Because this woman who did this, she did it before, I'm sure this is not the first time she ever bullied somebody....they just take it further and futher each time they do it...to see what they can get away with. IMO

This is very tragic for this family, the daughter, mother and grandfather all had this illness I think if I'm reading this right.

The up side of facebook and these social media things is that instead of the abuse being witnessed only in a single neighborhood the whole country is now reading news articles about it. If it wasn't for the social media outlet maybe these cases would not have become news. When it becomes nation wide news I think it gives more "voice" back to the suffering family and others who suffer in the same way.

I too wish that the woman would have received more than a few months of probation though. That is just a pointless slap on the wrist. I think emotional suffering is real and should be treated accordingly. This woman did harm to her neighbors and it was so un called for.

I think bully's facial expression in the article is so weird it's that vacant, flat-affect look.
I'm just not convinced that she doesnt know better...she is an adult and unless she is insane then she should have picked up some social norms by now. She knows better, she is just mean spirited period.  

[BonesMS]

((the end of story message is that in America a person can emotionally abuse their terminally ill underage neighbor and get away with it))----see this is why I'm not patriotic. I'm not proud to be an American. We don't have any moral values as a country. Makes me feel angry and sad. I would put it back on the judicial system. What did the judge decide...probation. Should have made an example out of her. That's what I would have done. Because this woman who did this, she did it before, I'm sure this is not the first time she ever bullied somebody....they just take it further and futher each time they do it...to see what they can get away with. IMO

This is very tragic for this family, the daughter, mother and grandfather all had this illness I think if I'm reading this right.

The up side of facebook and these social media things is that instead of the abuse being witnessed only in a single neighborhood the whole country is now reading news articles about it. If it wasn't for the social media outlet maybe these cases would not have become news. When it becomes nation wide news I think it gives more "voice" back to the suffering family and others who suffer in the same way.

I too wish that the woman would have received more than a few months of probation though. That is just a pointless slap on the wrist. I think emotional suffering is real and should be treated accordingly. This woman did harm to her neighbors and it was so un called for.

I think bully's facial expression in the article is so weird it's that vacant, flat-affect look.
I'm just not convinced that she doesn't know better...she is an adult and unless she is insane then she should have picked up some social norms by now. She knows better, she is just mean spirited period.  

I agree that the bully is a mean-spirited b*tch!  I believe that Instant Karma will get her in the end and payback will be h*ll for her, which she will richly deserve!

[BonesMS]

Just checking in.....

[BonesMS]

All that you have said makes sense Bones, I have a window into what it is like, a small sense of similarity in myself. I guess even within NTs there are variations of, er, sensitivities? If that indeed makes sense. Just because I can tolerate something and smile doesn't mean that I like it!

Thanks, Freshwater.

I've been reading the chapter about Selective Mutism and after I've seen descriptions "from the inside out", e.g. thinking in pictures but unable to translate those pictures into words.......I reacted with.......CHECK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm also remembering a little about the descriptions of my Dad and looking at the pictures of him has made me wonder if he was an Aspie too?  (I often heard descriptions of how he left school because he was so bored.  The way his school day had been structured was he would have Study Hall as the last period and he would have all his homework finished before going home.  When he asked for additional school work, he was refused.  The school system simply did NOT know what to do with him because he "didn't fit the mold".....and this was DECADES before Hans Asperger identified the Syndrome.)

I've finished reading the library book and I'm still going back and re-reading chapters that resonate with me....e.g. Stomach Issues and Autism (Check!).  The book also includes other websites for information:  http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_a58d4f6a/wp_a58d4f6a.html .  I remember, when I was a child, I was diagnosed as "emotionally disturbed" because I didn't fit anything else in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual at the time.  (Asperger's was not included until 1994 so before then, MANY Baby Boomer Aspies were misdiagnosed and given inappropriate treatment(s) that did NOTHING!)  I recall the pediatrician telling NWombDonor that I would have MANY developmental issues because I was three months premature.  (She attempted to use that as excuse to get rid of me.)  I'm still exploring the other websites to see what resources are available for someone my age.

[Hopalong]

It's so exciting that you've found a book that understands YOU, Bones.

I remember so many times when I would find a book and find myself...it is such a relief.
Makes you feel less alone. Helps you view yourself compassionately, be your own friend.

That is really, really cool.

Keep on keepin' on in looking for resources. You are such determination on legs,
and that's inspiring!

Hops

[BonesMS]

It's so exciting that you've found a book that understands YOU, Bones.

I remember so many times when I would find a book and find myself...it is such a relief.
Makes you feel less alone. Helps you view yourself compassionately, be your own friend.

That is really, really cool.

Keep on keepin' on in looking for resources. You are such determination on legs,
and that's inspiring!

Hops

Thanks, Hops!

One of the other things I came across while reading the links on Asperger's was the difficulty in recognizing faces, even faces of family members.  I've lost count as to how many times that has happened to me....including times when I encountered famous people and didn't recognize them immediately!  For example, at a Star Trek convention, I literally bumped into Majel Barrett while shopping in the Dealer's Room.  (I was so deep into my "Zone" that I wasn't aware of anyone else around me.)  When I looked up, I didn't recognize her, mumbled "Sorry", then started to go back inside my "Bubble".  She said "Howdy!".  The second time I came out of my "Zone" and made eye contact, I suddenly realized what I had just done and I was MORTIFIED!  She thought it was hysterically funny and wasn't insulted at all!  Boy was my face RED!!!!  

[BonesMS]

More Asperger's information:

http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_4a3112c8/wp_4a3112c8.html

[BonesMS]

Spotted this on the Autism Hangout blog and I can relate!!!!!


http://www.autismhangout.com/myhangout/blog.asp?id=1584&blogID=1375

[Hopalong]

That list of traits is very helpful, Bones...makes a lot of sense.
I like it that what sometimes looks "selfish" has nothing to do with not being caring or nice...it's just the Aspie brain doing what it does, so there's zero point being annoyed. Nothing is intended, it's just that person interacting with the world the way they can and must. Patience and compassion would probably help, huh?

And all hail Trekkies! (Not that I know anything about it, but I've always had a very soft heart for folks who find such joy in that world. One of my new coworkers just lights up when he thinks about it.)


Hops

[BonesMS]

That list of traits is very helpful, Bones...makes a lot of sense.
I like it that what sometimes looks "selfish" has nothing to do with not being caring or nice...it's just the Aspie brain doing what it does, so there's zero point being annoyed. Nothing is intended, it's just that person interacting with the world the way they can and must. Patience and compassion would probably help, huh?

And all hail Trekkies! (Not that I know anything about it, but I've always had a very soft heart for folks who find such joy in that world. One of my new coworkers just lights up when he thinks about it.)


Hops

Thanks, Hops!

I'm glad you understand.

BTW, Star Trek is one of the things I will go on and on about....especially Deep Space Nine!  I like watching the DVDs over and over again.