Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?

[Ami]

Dear Bones,
  I have a slightly different take on it. When I read your post,it hit me that she 'can't help it". Whatever she was doing, she was doing it,subconsciously.
   My question to you, though, is why didn't you end the friendship at the Great wall of China?    Love   Ami

[isittoolate]

Congratulations, bones, on your Masters

Such terrible behaviour on the part of your 'friend'.

AS I read through all the responses, my question is, "Did she not realize that there were others observing her offensive behaviour?" I cannot imagine doing that to a friend, let alone in puiblic, and not feel any sense of 'misbehaviour'.

How terribly weird and does anyone know an N who would draw negative attention to him/herself? I'm stunned!

Congrats again
Izzy

[teartracks]

Sycophant:   A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people.

This might explain why said friends 'helpful' actions were way over the top.  She was in the company of Bones who she possibly sees as superior as well as Bones colleagues.   I think sycophant would come under the heading of narcissist, but may not necessarily be  excluded from other types of disordered behavior.  And if it is a stand alone behavior, it may not qualify as a disorder.  Maybe it's a very annoying quirk.   Not sure on that.   

If the friend is not disordered in other significant ways, then there is a chance that talking through this incident might be a wake up call for her and help her correct the behavior for the future.  I'm just punching in the dark here, but then I'm just your friendly, garden variety VESMB poster.

tt

[Certain Hope]

    Congratulations, Bones !!      
((((((((((Bones))))))))))  Three cheers for you on your MS !

Say, does your friend ever respond with anger when you correct her?

Love,
Hope

[gratitude28]

CH,
Your point about anger is funny. My NM only shrugs and giggles if corrected. She never gets upset about it - I am pretty sure because she doesn't think she did anything wrong.
Love, Beth

[Certain Hope]

CH,
Your point about anger is funny. My NM only shrugs and giggles if corrected. She never gets upset about it - I am pretty sure because she doesn't think she did anything wrong.
Love, Beth

Dear Beth,

I'm not sure what to make of that. Npd-ex always had some backwards responses - the opposite of what would seem appropriate - but he also was so extremely defensive that any suggestion he'd made a mistake would arouse instant fury. He didn't always act that out immediately, though... sometimes you'd just catch the flash in his eyes and know that you'd be paying for it later. Very passive-aggressive.
Might be an interesting thread? How does N respond when corrected... hmmm...

Love,
Hope

[BonesMS]

Bones - CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!  That is Awesome!!!!

Sorry the one person who went with you to add support to your magnificent day actually detracted from your celebration of your magnificent accomplishment.  Now you know and you clearly are good at drawing that boundary.  What ever her problem it is big enough to interfere in a true relationship.  Isn't that sad for her?

Way to go - girl!!!!!

Thanks, GS!

I'm finding it interesting at the range of behaviors an N will go through in an attempt to force people to do what they want...at all costs.

Bones

[BonesMS]

Dear Bones,

Re:  Is it always N behavior to violate others boundaries?

First your traveling companion exhibited over the top N behavior.

I think we all violate the boundaries of others from time to time, but not maliciously.  The difference is that N's won't hear you when you explain that they have overstepped a boundary.  They will do the same thing over and over again even though you have been clear that their behavior is not acceptable.  They will lie, deny, manipulate, set you up for more,  - well you know the gig, right?

On the other hand, a regular person will hear you when you explain that they have overstepped a boundary, they know that no means no, they will apologize and mean it, correct their behavior, feel remorse, talk it through, pursue mutuality, work with you to clear the air, and so on.  Once the two have talked through the incident, both will feel like they have moved forward.  From there, the normal flow of interaction and communication can take it's healthiest course.

Congratulations on the Masters!

tt

Thanks, TT!

Your explanation is right on the money!!!!!  I couldn't help but notice that whenever this "friend" hears the word "NO", she gets this blank look on her face, what appears to be a glaze over her eyes, and then she will attempt to force others to do what she wants while acting pseudo-stupid.  Or she will insist on repeating the same thoughtless behaviors over and over again while giving herself "excuses/permission" to keep repeating those thoughtless behaviors.  I'll give a couple of examples:

Example #1:  About 14-15 years ago, one of her sisters was expecting her only child and she was on medical bed-rest as her pregnancy was high risk.  "Friend" had been going over to her sister's home to do her housework, (laundry, etc.) for her.  Sister explained how her maternity bras needed to be laundered because (a) they are delicate and (b) they are expensive.  "Friend" ignored these instructions, threw them into the regular laundry and RUINED them!  Then put on the pseudo-stupid routine and wondered why her sister was so ANGRY at her!  Shortly afterwards, when several of us were planning and working on a baby shower for this sister, Mom started creating a family heirloom potato salad from an heirloom recipe that had been handed down from mother to daughter for SEVERAL generations.  "Friend" attempted to FORCE her mother to change the recipe and add other ingredients.  Mother told her "NO", the recipe doesn't need those other ingredients....leave it.  A minute or two later, "friend" asks her mother if she wants celery.  Mother, again, told her "NO, the recipe does not need it."  This was repeated over and over again for about 30-45 minutes until Mom started yelling "NO means NO!"  And yet, "friend" kept repeating the same question acting pseudo-stupid.  Finally I chimed in with "What part of the word "NO" do you NOT understand?!?!?  Mom has said 'NO, she does NOT need celery!  Please STOP!!"  "Friend" gave us both the blank stare and the glazed eyes.

Example #2:  A whole group of us had made dinner reservations at a very expensive upscale restaurant in a very upscale area.  (This was a special treat for all of us.)  The group of us talked and agreed that we would all meet at Mom's house at 4:00 p.m. and carpool down to the restaurant as parking was at a premium.  (I was the only non-family member in the group.)  At 4:00 p.m., everyone EXCEPT "friend" and her husband had arrived.  (Dinner reservations at this restaurant was at 7:00 p.m.)  After waiting, I was ready to go ahead and leave "friend" behind while the rest of us carpooled to the restaurant.  However, because I am a non-family member, I was overruled by the others and we continued to wait.  FIVE HOURS LATER, here comes "friend" and her husband while she is exclaiming:  "Ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh! I ought to be spanked!"  I was FURIOUS!!!  Her family was LIVID and they all tore into her so I didn't have to say anything at that time.  Her family members said it all for me!  Her response?  That same psuedo-stupid behavior, blank stare and glazed eyes.  (Later on, when she attempted to do the same thing with me and I had the opportunity to say what I thought about her continuous tardiness, instead of apologizing and changing the behavior, she responded with:  "BUT.....I said I ought to be spanked!"  I pointed out to her that does NOT constitute an apology because the behavior has NOT changed.  She was simply giving herself permission to do it again to others and that is NOT appropriate!

At the time these incidents occurred, I didn't know about N-behaviors!  Now it's all starting to make sense!

Bones

[BonesMS]

Dear Bones,
  I have a slightly different take on it. When I read your post,it hit me that she 'can't help it". Whatever she was doing, she was doing it,subconsciously.
   My question to you, though, is why didn't you end the friendship at the Great wall of China?    Love   Ami

Thanks, Ami.

I understand where you are coming from.  One of the reasons I have not ended it recently is because her mother is in the end stages of Alzheimer's and is totally at her mercy.  I have been acting as an advocate for her mother, since Mom cannot defend herself, and plan to continue to be Mom's advocate for the limited amount of time she has left on this Earth.  (Mom will be 90 at the end of this month.)  After she is gone, I'm sure the connection will end.

Bones

[BonesMS]

Congratulations, bones, on your Masters

Such terrible behaviour on the part of your 'friend'.

AS I read through all the responses, my question is, "Did she not realize that there were others observing her offensive behaviour?" I cannot imagine doing that to a friend, let alone in puiblic, and not feel any sense of 'misbehaviour'.

How terribly weird and does anyone know an N who would draw negative attention to him/herself? I'm stunned!

Congrats again
Izzy

Thanks, Izzy.

I think she was so self-absorbed that she just didn't notice what others thought....or maybe she didn't care what others thought.

Bones

[BonesMS]

Sycophant:   A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people.

This might explain why said friends 'helpful' actions were way over the top.  She was in the company of Bones who she possibly sees as superior as well as Bones colleagues.   I think sycophant would come under the heading of narcissist, but may not necessarily be  excluded from other types of disordered behavior.  And if it is a stand alone behavior, it may not qualify as a disorder.  Maybe it's a very annoying quirk.   Not sure on that.   

If the friend is not disordered in other significant ways, then there is a chance that talking through this incident might be a wake up call for her and help her correct the behavior for the future.  I'm just punching in the dark here, but then I'm just your friendly, garden variety VESMB poster.

tt

Thanks, TT!

I haven't heard from her since we arrived back home.  She stopped speaking to me on the plane after I emphasized the word "NO" and ignored me after the plane landed and her husband drove us home.  I was too tired to care.

Bones

[BonesMS]

    Congratulations, Bones !!      
((((((((((Bones))))))))))  Three cheers for you on your MS !

Say, does your friend ever respond with anger when you correct her?

Love,
Hope

Thanks, Hope!

Ironically, she puts on the pseudo-stupid routine whenever anyone corrects her.

Bones

[Ami]

Dear Bones,
  It is sweet how you answer everyone's posts.
  The potato salad and being late with the "phony excuse" is MY MOTHER  -- all the way. My M was not violent,but she did those types of things all the time.
   She was meeting someone at the subway station to go  to Boston to hear a lecture. My mother did not show up until much later. The person went to the lecture alone. Then ,my mother showed up much later . My mother thought the person was a jerk for getting upset. My mother did not know why the person "over reacted". She did not know why the person didn't like her.Her explanation was that the person was just a "jerk".
  If it was not so sad, it would be really,really funny.
It is sweet that you want to help the mother. the mother sounds very decent.       Love  Ami                             
 
   

[Certain Hope]

Thanks, Hope!

Ironically, she puts on the pseudo-stupid routine whenever anyone corrects her.

Bones

Dear Bones,

You're welcome!

Reading your last posts and thinking back to your previous mentions of this friend, I can really sense her anger toward...no, hatred of... her family.
Her plea to add celery to the heirloom potato salad sounds like a childish attempt to rewrite history... and very sad.
I feel so sorry for her and for her mother.

I wanted to say also, that I don't believe boundary invasions are always NPD behaviour, by any means... and that blank look of your friend sounds to me like an act of splitting - dissociating - which I've think implies something else going on with her... within her.

When I was a little girl, my matron aunt was always wanting to fix this or that on me, to tend to me, as I realize now, as she felt herself to have been neglected... and she could be very pushy and invasive. I think she identified so closely with me at that point, that she really thought we were the one in the same. Maybe that's what's happened on occasion with you and your friend... like at your graduation... she couldn't stand to see herself doing the things you were doing and was desperate to correct them/ you.
Anyhow, aunt lived with her mother, my grandma, all of her life, acting out her numerous resentments in a very passive-aggressive manner and consistently denying accountability, all the while defying her mother (and anyone close to her) in the most ridiculous ways. Grandma disliked clutter, so aunt would heap it in every corner of the common space they shared, especially catalogs, all around their little kitchen nook table, while she had a huge bedroom (my grandma's was a closet, in comparison) with a huge desk and floor space in which she could have kept these piles. But no - they had to be prominently displayed for the purpose of aggravating her mother. That's just one example of a kazillion.
She was always late, too. Always. And so very childish... would set her eyeglasses down in the middle of a stairway or give a young child in the family some treasured possession with which to play. All of this begged someone to say, "uhh... that's not wise", so that she could replay her "you can't make me grow up" routine. Toward the end of my grandma's life, aunt chose to get some vengeance by uncovering grandma's weaknesses in a very deliberate manner, speaking with relish of grandma's incontinence and other daily issues of a woman in her 90's.
It was really pitiful to see... and your friend reminds me of her.
Dunno whether that helps any, but just thought I'd share it

With love,
Hope

[Hopalong]

Hi Bones,
This sounds almost like a neurological deficit of some sort, or a little PTSD-ish (you mentioned it happens when people are yelling at her). I wonder if it could be:

Mother told her "NO", the recipe doesn't need those other ingredients....leave it.  A minute or two later, "friend" asks her mother if she wants celery.  Mother, again, told her "NO, the recipe does not need it."  This was repeated over and over again for about 30-45 minutes until Mom started yelling "NO means NO!"  And yet, "friend" kept repeating the same question acting pseudo-stupid.  Finally I chimed in with "What part of the word "NO" do you NOT understand?!?!?  Mom has said 'NO, she does NOT need celery!  Please STOP!!"  "Friend" gave us both the blank stare and the glazed eyes.

I have a close friend w/PTSD who often does a blank uncomprehending stare. Sometimes she appears unintelligent although I know she is not. She tells me that she has to work hard to process verbal information. When she's tired, she can barely speak coherently.

Hops