Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?

[Certain Hope]

Do you think N people have a sense of entitlement hat makes them think they are exempt from normal courtesy?  I know my mom is always tugging at my shirt or licking her finger to wipe something off my face.  The last time she did that I grabbed her arm and said DO NOT SPIT ON MY FACE!

Kelly, she doesn't do things like that with others, like employees in the office, does she?

I think it's probably more a matter of her not seeing you as an adult individual... to her, you are still her little girl and so yeah, she feels entitled.
Seems like just as much an immature "mom" thing as an "n" thing, to me.

[Tweety]

Bones...
I have had problems recently with a SPACE INVADOR

 He is one of the Dr's that I work with , He thinks he's funny...NOT
It's really childish, stupid annoying things. It was tough at first to really put a boundary up. I tried to do it with humor at first ( Felt the safest way)
It started with kinda teasing stuff-
buzzing sound of the reflex instrument, in my ear.....making me jump
Told him to stop...........kept doing it....my response Yup you guessed it "What part of No didn't you understand.....making him only try to do it again

He is always going through my cabinets and draws to find stuff...... I said excuse me can I help you find something....he just kept at it

He came very close to me whilst talking and I with humor responding.....making hand gestures like a box around me............" Excuse me, person space"
with that he jumped in my chair and started going through my draws like a little kid, defying me on purpose...I just walked away and ignored him like I would a toddler.

But the culmination came last week ........
A few of us girls were talking and joking and of course he had to be part of it, which no one was talking to him ......I responded to one of the girls.......... He hauled off and punched me in the arm and said"Don't say that" laughing.

Well It took all I had not to punch him back... I  just whipped around (Must have looked like the exorcist lol)  And said " That's it I have told you three times to stop it and your not listening , don't ever touch me again.....He laughed (No,suprise there)
His response...Well youshouldn't have said that......My response " I can say and do what ever I want , you dont'get to hit me , touch me , Punch me, invade my space, you don't have that right, He was blocking the door way, and I said GET OUT OF MY WAY, and I walked out, Fumming and almost ready for tears,I was soooooo angry and frustrated.
He later said ...I owe you an apology, Your absolutely right.  I dint even go near him, he said it across the counter.. It was time to go home (Friday) and i just left. Thank God I'm on vacation this week.
Whoooooosh , these people are SPACE INVADORS.... I also think he has some sexual aggression stuff going on as well but that a whole other topic.
Love Tweety

[Overcomer]

My mom will do that to me and my daughter.....probably a "mom" thing. 

But the Space Invader?  Maybe I picked this up from my mom and I am not proud of it.

My mom comes over and starts looking through my stuff.  Looking through piles of mail.  Snooping, really.

Ever since I was young I have been a detective of sorts.  I am nosey.  I used to read the Intoxicated Driver report and the Bankruptsy report and the births and the deaths and I look up how much a person's house is worth online.  When I like a guy, I would drive by his house....almost stalk him from afar.  I used to like to catch my ex doing something bad so I could say Ah ha!!!  I think that is how my mom is and I really don't like being that way.  I went to an AlAnon meeting and a woman confessed to being that way with her husband.  If she knew he was drinking even though he was trying to hide it, she somehow felt in control??  Does that make sense?  Are those boundary violations???

[Certain Hope]

Hi Kelly,

Yes, I think that those are boundary violations... the mail snooping, digging through someone else's paperwork.
On the other hand, I've seen people do that simply because they like to appear busy. They have no intention of actually following through on anything they may find while snooping, but it makes them feel "in charge" just by rifling through papers... lol.

During my season of control freakery, I did some of those things, too... years ago, searching for evidence that my kids' dad was smoking pot, but then not confronting the issue. I guess it's a matter of "knowledge is power"... except it didn't work out that way.
Also, to me, I think it's about filling up an empty self with other peoples' "stuff"... in the form of information or whatever.
It's a non-contact way of making a pseudo-connection... kinda odd.
Controlling people don't much like surprises, either, so there's an element of self-protection in there, too.

Catching people doing something bad, like in the reports about drunk drivers and bankruptcys... what did you do with that info? Did you discuss it with others or just store it up?

Hope

[Certain Hope]

Hi Tweety,

I know someone kinda like that doctor you've described.
He's a bit ADHD (my description only and not a diagnosis) and can't seem to stay still in the presence of people over whom he has some authority.

I sense that it's a constant battle for him to impress upon them that he's really a "good guy"... as though he's not comfortable with the fact that he can boss them around. He wants so much for them to genuinely "like" him that he'll act generally silly and sometimes uses a warped sense of humor and odd mannerisms in their presence. He does the butting in deal, too... very annoying. But actually, I think he's just really nervous and doesn't know how to connect with people in that setting, so this is his way of trying to make them more comfortable with him and make himself feel like he's not being "left out". Unfortunately, it just makes people think he's weird... lol.

Npd-ex did toddler-style, pushy, ridiculous stuff, too, of course... plenty of it... but never, ever, would he apologize.

The sexual aggression stuff may put a whole other spin onto this and would be a whole lot more difficult to bypass or excuse, so I dunno...
just thought I'd share with you my impressions of another "clown" I know.

Love,
Hope

[Tweety]

The sexual aggression stuff may put a whole other spin onto this and would be a whole lot more difficult to bypass or excuse, so I dunno...
just thought I'd share with you my impressions of another "clown" I know.

Hey Hope,
Eeesh.... after reading your comment I'm ALMOST feeling like I over reacted, but not quite.
 Because yes, there have also been alto of sexual talk from him, a lot of projecting stuff. ( He is in his late 50"s)  He's also talking a lot about sexual , stuff, st first "seemed" funny , than I started to get that "Been here before feeling" and the radar went up and I just kinda observed for a while. And ooop there it was. It's funny because when I first met him years ago I didn't like him ---pre recovery...
Should have listened to myself my intuition was right...than of course I did the usual ,
doubting myself stuff, and let myself "try" to like him stuff.
God truly has a plan for us, because I was not working with him then, and now work with him 1 day a week ( he only comes in 1 day a week)  for the past year.

I sense that it's a constant battle for him to impress upon them that he's really a "good guy"... as though he's not comfortable with the fact that he can boss them around. He wants so much for them to genuinely "like" him that he'll act generally silly and sometimes uses a warped sense of humor and odd mannerisms in their presence. He does the butting in deal, too... very annoying. But actually, I think he's just really nervous and doesn't know how to connect with people in that setting, so this is his way of trying to make them more comfortable with him and make himself feel like he's not being "left out". Unfortunately, it just makes people think he's weird... lol.

Yes, I sensed that as well, which is why I TRIED to doubt my self at first, but still tooooooo much sexual stuff going on with him.

I learned alot, which Is mainly what I have been learning lately, which is to listen to myself and my gut, and not get to close....... Before anything like this happens.
Because for my part in this, I must have aloud him some sort of permission to come into my personal space, because I laughed and thought it was funny at some point.
I guess I didn't know how to handle it yet..........
progress not perfection right?
Love Tweety

[Overcomer]

Don't really do anything with the information.  It's just this weird need to know everyone's business.  I think it is weird.  Like I always look at the obituaries.  Then I get sad if a baby dies or someone young dies.  Sometimes I see people I know.  Then I call my other friend who reads the obits and tell her.

[Certain Hope]

Hi Tweety

Yup... I understand that "ALMOST" feeling like you over-reacted!
That's a big part of why I'm here on the board, reading and talking through situations like this. In order to learn how to take in the bigger picture and discern wisely, I guess we have to sort through not getting hung up on "triggered" sort of reactions which can lead to black vs white thinking.
I've had to practice alot of that with my husband, post-N... because sometimes it's so difficult to tell whether I'm being reasonable or not, when some ordinary "male" thing he says or does sets off a siren. Taking that knowledge outside the safety and security of the intimacy of "home" and applying it out in the world is another story. This helps!!

By the way, that's really something... how God allowed this doc to be re-introduced into your life at this point... kinda like a progress check.
Oh yes, He has a plan!
I've had things like that, too... getting a chance to re-evaluate and receive validation re: people who I found difficult in the past, for various reasons, but wasn't sure why. This is wonderful!

All that sexual innuendo... I wouldn't care for that a bit, either! Maybe he's just so immature, maybe he's this, that, or the other... but the lesson I get from this is that it's up to us to draw the lines. We can "put the best construction on everything" and give people the benefit of the doubt and all that good stuff AND still hold our own boundaries firm. It's not an either/or proposition... and that was a revelation to me.
Progress, not perfection... oh yes !!!

Love,
Hope

[Certain Hope]

Hey, Kelly,

Check this out?   http://www.aishealth.com/Compliance/Hipaa/RPP_Nosy_Employees_Require_Remedies.html

I just skimmed it... kinda gives a picture of what might be going on behind the scenes of our nosiness.

Love,
Hope

[Ami]

Dear Tweety,
  I think that this guy is DANGEROUS. The "punch in the arm" strikes me as way over the line and just the beginning of the potential for physical abuse. It is just my intuition.. I would really, really try to not 'engage" with him. I think that he is worse than you realize.
    Your intuition warned you about him a long time ago.
   What did you do? Not trust yourself( our BIGGEST problem)
   Let's make a pact--right now_- to trust our intuition. How about it?
   i was thinking about your N mother--- changing in to a monster.
  I think that if we faced it as kids, we might have gone insane-- literally. Now, we are left broken b/c of them.. The worst thing in our brokenness is not trusting ourselves.
   I am going to start to go to a 3 D support group ,like you recommended.
   Tweety, I can hear so much intelligence, humor and warmth in you.The answer(IMO)is to "mine' it like a miner searches for gold.
  Inside ourselves is our TRUE self and all these unique and wonderful qualities. for us to discover. The N's stripped us bare(or almost) of our potentail.
  I am finding things that I really like about myself when I am 'real"                       Love   Ami
 

[Tweety]

Let's make a pact--right now_- to trust our intuition. How about it?

  :)I tweety, solemnly swear to trust my instincts from this day forward

Thank you soooo much Ami for picking up on that Dangerous part in him.
Unfortunately I have to work with him , thank God it wasn't me choosing to be around him....lol

I am going to start to go to a 3 D support group ,like you recommended.

Oh (((((((((((AMI))))))))))))))))) I am so happy for you, I hope you find one that "Fits" for you...It took me going to a few different meetings before I found one that fits.  So please don't get discouraged... Remember people in these groups have issue's lol.lol         don't we all

I think that if we faced it as kids, we might have gone insane-- literally. Now, we are left broken b/c of them.. The worst thing in our brokenness is not trusting ourselves.

Oh AMI , I cry for us both

But "Our"  spirit ,yours and mine wouldn't truly let us be defeated. We have gone through Hell and back.........places not very many people have experience... I like to think of it as HEY WE HAVE LIVED LIKE NO OTHER AND HAVE SEEN SO MUCH IN THIS WORLD  .... Maybe God gave us this because he knew we would fight our way back to our true spirit our true selves.
Now I toast.... may the rest of our lives be as wonderful as the first half was horrible.

Love to you
Tweety

[Ami]

Dear Tweety
  I had this "neat" sentiment that I want to share. My F has become my biggest advocate. He lives with MY M   BUT he is seeing( really seeing) the NPD. He goes to Al Anon so he is trying to be honest in life.
Anyway, Today, he was seeing how she "does not get it". Prior to this, he was trying to get her to "see" how she was. He "thought" that she was seeing herself  b/c they can SEEM like they get it,at times.However, they are not REALLY getting it.
  Anyway, he called me to tell me about it( that she really did not get it). I felt so affirmed b/c he lives with her. It must be like GS with her F. Other people are validating you. I have NEVER been validated before.
 I had a moment when I realized how "normal' people must feel. I felt like I could own myself . I felt like I could keep myself safe and face situations. I felt like I was an adult who could cope. It was so strange b/c I have not felt at all whole since I was 14. and I have NEVER felt like an adult-- ever.
 I always wondered 'How did people go out and function in life with out getting sick or exhausted?The answer is that they know who they are, I guess. they have a foundation WITHIN themselves.
  I am going to have to ask Hops about this b/c she seems to save the day for me when I am wondering about things like this(lol).
  Anyway,it was a moment in time when I had a glimpse that life MIGHT not have to be  AGNST, AGNST, AGNST------What does anyone think of this?                  Thanks      Ami

I think that we( survivors of N) live in a totally different "world" than "normal' people. Ours is  made up of pain,  suffering ,fear guilt, SHAME etc  etc.. I bet that "normal" people do not live like this. I am just realizing that I was among "normal" people and looking "normal, but I was an alien. That is why I gave up. I never met an "alien" like me. Having an N mother ,with everyone in denial ,does make you a sort of 'alien". I could only LOOK normal( which I tried very hard to do) but I could not BE normal. THIS is a really big lesson for me.

[JanetLG]

Tweety,

I love this:

"Now I toast.... may the rest of our lives be as wonderful as the first half was horrible."

Janet

[Tweety]

I think that we( survivors of N) live in a totally different "world" than "normal' people. Ours is  made up of pain,  suffering ,fear guilt, SHAME etc  etc.. I bet that "normal" people do not live like this. I am just realizing that I was among "normal" people and looking "normal, but I was an alien. That is why I gave up. I never met an "alien" like me. Having an N mother ,with everyone in denial ,does make you a sort of 'alien". I could only LOOK normal( which I tried very hard to do) but I could not BE normal. THIS is a really big lesson for me.

 AMI  Hey you didn't swear 

Well whatever "normal" is We are all normal or abbynormal to some degree.
hum.....well thats probably why I was attracted to the abbynormal's , was What I was used to, I "knew" no other way of life.. So in that sense I was pretty normal, for the company I was keepin,,te hee hee.. So now with all my recovery tool's and help I hope to keep better company and it will be  a new normal for me.

Janet....Cheers 

Love Tweety

[Tweety]

He goes to Al Anon so he is trying to be honest in life.
Anyway, Today, he was seeing how she "does not get it". Prior to this, he was trying to get her to "see" how she was. He "thought" that she was seeing herself  b/c they can SEEM like they get it,at times.However, they are not REALLY getting it.

P.S. Sorry hit the send button to quick.
Just wanted to give a shout out to AL-ANON...... saved my life...
They have a slogan "Let it begin with me" ...there is a trickle down effect, amongst family, loved ones etc. He starts making changes and everyones benefits...
KOODOS for Dad
I just love it when stuff comes together and there is real time proof... You are benefiting.
Love Tweety