Author Topic: Need a normalcy check - please help!  (Read 4885 times)

finding peace

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Need a normalcy check - please help!
« on: August 15, 2007, 07:42:29 PM »
I was talking to my H the other day about how our girls argue sometimes.  And I said to him, well it is a lot better than how my brother and I used to be.  When he got mad at me, he used to beat me with a stick (it was a pretty big stick – about 3 feet long and about 2-3 inches around).  Whenever he did this, I would tell my M, and she would make him sit down on a chair and hand me the stick to hit him back.

Well I could never do it – every time she handed me that stick, I would refuse to hit him.  He would laugh like a loon the whole time and call me names.  Then she would make us “kiss and make up.”  Ick.

When I told my H, he had got the funniest look on his face, and said that is “totally bizarre.”  Well this shocked me a bit, as I thought it was just normal.

In any case, I got to thinking about this, and remembered that he was never, ever punished by her or my father for hitting me – not even a grounding or time out. 

In fact, I was told that it was my fault that he hit me because I was so "verbally precocious" that he had no defense against my “words” and so he hit me.  In a sense, he was permitted to hit me wasn’t he?

In some ways I feel silly for posting this, but before talking to my H I really took this for just normal every day life in my house.  Is this normal on my parents part (not so much my brother’s actions, as I assume most sibs fight, and it can get physical), or was this just another way of being scapegoated?

Thanks
Peace
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NoMoreMindGames

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 07:48:54 PM »
hi FP,

nope, that's definitely not "normal".  that's like teaching him it's okay to beat a girl, and teaching you that you're supposed to be beaten.  that's just horrible!

it reminds me, ironically, of something my N father said once (which i heard about second-hand)....somehow this topic came up at the bar, and he mentioned how his mother used to give he and his siblings enemas constantly, especially when they were sick.  when everyone exclaimed their shock at this, he was like "what?  wait, that's not normal?  i thought everyone gave their kids enemas a lot."  (sheesh, no wonder he's so f**cked up).

anyway, yeah...it's def. good to run things by people, to compare stories and histories...helps to get down to the root of the problem.  otherwise you would just think it's "normal", right?

pennyplant

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2007, 08:11:44 PM »
It sounds like he was "trained" to hit you and also to disrespect words and intelligence (and females, too).  I think you were made into the family scapegoat in this way.  I wonder if he ever grew to feel guilty about his actions and being used by your parents in this way.

Pennyplant
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Certain Hope

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 08:25:02 PM »
Dear Finding Peace,

Your parents thought you deserved to be hit because you were "verbally precocious"?

I think that is warped.
 Seems like their message to you through this was that you should stop expressing yourself... or else.
I don't know whether they got some sort of vicarious satisfaction from seeing you hit by your brother or they just didn't want to bother disciplining him, but this definitely does not sound "normal" to me.

I wonder what is the age difference between you and your brother and how did he turn out? Do you have a relationship with him now?

Hugs to you, Peace...
I know it's so strange to discover that something you'd always accepted as part of ordinary life is really just another.... symptom.

Hope

Ami

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2007, 08:36:08 PM »
Dear Peace,
   I think that it is really good that you asked this question( and any other's like it). I remember when I asked a similar question about my H. Someone said two words----- NOT NORMAL. It "cracked  me up' for some reason.
  Yours is NOT normal. It is awful . The message is that you have no value and you don't deserve to be cherished or protected.I think that it would really send you  strong message. of worthlessness.
  I am so, so sorry. It was a type of brainwashing of you to be victimized(IMO) It was an eroding of your core self.
  WE ,as humans. can adapt to many awful situations. It is a life saving mechanism ,at the time. However, now that you are out of that house--- you are left with the awful,painful effects on your pyche. I am so, so, so sorry.
    You are inspiring me to ask some similar questions .                      Love    Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

finding peace

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2007, 09:29:49 PM »
NMMG - :shock:  My NF used to claim that his mother gave him enemas every day until he was 15yo.  Maybe we have found the root of the disease. :shock:   While he said that (he started talking about this as child abuse was becoming a household word) I learned at a pretty young age that I could never trust a word that came out of his mouth.  I have no doubt she gave him some, but I find it hard to believe that at 15 he was still accepting enemas (especially given how violent he was).  But the rest of the family bought it - and every time he acted abusively (verbal or physical) - it was always excused because of his "child abuse."

Besse thanks – need the validation – so much was off in my childhood, I am really shocked when someone tells me - no Not normal.

Penny – He doesn’t feel any guilt that I know of.  He grew up with a huge sense of entitlement and in some ways, is a misogynist.  I had a “discussion” (putting it mildly) with him not too long ago when, in reference to his 2yo daughter, he said “I am coming to the conclusion that females are just born difficult.”  (She was acting like a normal 2yo).  To this day, he speaks badly of me to everyone he can – that never changed.  He did this constantly when we were kids, both inside and outside of the house (made my social life h***).  I don’t entirely blame him for his actions as a child – he was just acting out what he saw the adults do.  But since it continued as adults, I have nothing to do with him these days.

Hope – My brother is less than a year older than me.  My mom used to tell me about how jealous he was when I was born.  Sad part was that she got a real kick out of his being jealous over her, and encouraged it.  I think the jealousy is only natural.  My kids had it and I work really hard to encourage their relationship.  I just think it is so sad that she needed attention so much that she would encourage this - ended up hurting both of us.

Ami – You are so, so right.  It is a life saving mechanism.  Now I am really wondering what else I took for “normal” that was not “normal”  :shock:  I am not sure I want to know.  (wanting to be an ostrich with my head in sand about now.)

Thanks so much for responding everyone.

::::big sad and tired sigh::::  I am beginning to think that nothing about my childhood was normal.  I am left with this overwhelming sense of what is normal, and where do I go from here? 

Thanks again!

Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

Hopalong

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2007, 11:46:57 PM »
Oh Finding Peace.

Is there a Finding Pissed Off?

Hon. It was warped and what truth was deep inside you, that you would not be their cruelty delegate.

I know what that kind of young sadness feels like. You knew what was right and wrong.

I hope you can release your sorrow. It's all over, and you must make your happiness now out of
the pieces you have, and the ones you make.

I'm so sorry but I think in opening the door to seeing how wrong it was, you will be
finding peace.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2007, 03:26:28 AM »
It's not normal Peace.

It flips my stomach to picture you being hit with a stick......

 and nothing being done about it :shock: 

It's odd and abusive and I'm so sorry that happened to you. 

My N's parents made excuses for him and denied his abuse and tried to shame me into being quiet and feeling guilt after I told them what he was doing to me and our children. 

I suppose he was allowed to do awful things to his younger sibs all his life...... and this was what they received when they asked for relief?

I'm so glad I don't have to figure out why they behave the way they do. 

All I have to do is get centered and happy and live well..... raise our children well. 

::sigh::

That's a relief: )

JanetLG

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2007, 04:37:25 AM »
Peace,

No it's not normal. As others have said, you weren't valued, it was sexist, they opted out of taking their responsibility for disciplining your brother by making you do it. How horrible! You didn't deserve that!

But, as well as the abnormality of the actual behaviour and your feelings of being hit and treated badly, you're then left with this set of ideas that is confusing as an adult. This 'isn't it normal, then?' idea, which makes YOU feel as if YOU'RE in the wrong for questioning your upbringig. That's the thing that annoys me, when it happens to me. I remember asking a friend of mine if ALL mothers don't tell their daughters that they're ugly, and she looked at me as if I was mad. *I* ended up feeling bad, just for asking it.

As you'd probably imagine, this bit got to me:

" in reference to his 2yo daughter, he said “I am coming to the conclusion that females are just born difficult.”  "

No comment!! :shock:

Janet


Certain Hope

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2007, 08:14:35 AM »
Dear Finding Peace,

My dad and brother (10 years older) have always had a way of objectifying me, and females in general... and pointing the finger of their warped humor  at women as the cause of all the world's difficulties.
Your brother's conclusion that "females are just born difficult" is very familiar. I guess that's the lie these men tell themselves to excuse their own lack of ability to relate.

You wrote:  "::::big sad and tired sigh::::  I am beginning to think that nothing about my childhood was normal.  I am left with this overwhelming sense of what is normal, and where do I go from here?"

Dear Peace, you do have an inner script - a basis for what's good, right, and healthy.
Just because you're only now recognizing this particular instance consciously, doesn't mean you haven't known all along how wrong this was.
I know how disconcerting this sorta thing is, but please remember... you're the girl who could not use that stick on your brother. You knew then... and you know now... in the deepest places of your heart, where your love for your own children has stepped out and up to the plate to help them learn healthy ways of relating. You're not back to square one, even though it sometimes feels like it (boy, do I know that feeling)... this is just another little piece of that old puzzle. You're a good person and a great mom, Peace.

Love,
Hope

finding peace

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2007, 12:17:16 PM »
CB you said:

Quote
No.  It's not normal.  Your parents were abdicating their responsibility to discipline their son to another child.  YOU!


Hope, you said something similar.   :shock: It is sooo true. I never thought of it this way, but it really fits.  She did this on so many levels.  I was responsible for raising my sister, for taking care of my mother's emotions – she was a child.  I knew this at some levels, but hadn’t applied it to this situation  :shock:

That is a great idea with the kids - I am going to try that with mine next time.

Hops –

Oh yes, there is a Finding Pissed Off!  Oh yes. 

I spent so much of my childhood angry.  Now that I am away from it – I don’t want the anger, I want normalcy.  Anger never really accomplished anything for me as a child except to get me in more trouble, and as an adult, I don’t want to waste one more second with negative emotions – I would so much rather, like you so eloquently wrote (I do love your writing – it is very soothing to read) pick up the pieces I do have, and create new and beautiful ones.  I would like to find a way that I can just proclaim – ok - my childhood was rubbish, it was what it was, can’t change it, but thankfully IT IS OVER, and time to move on – but in some ways the behavior was so insidious, it sneaks up on me like it did the other day with my H.  And I get blindsided - good news is, it doesn't hurt as much as it used to.

Lighter –  Thanks.  You are right, I too need to get centered and focused on the here and now, and most importantly my kids.  You take care of you and those precious babies ((((I am thinking of you as you go through your hearing)))))

Janet – you are right - it is bad enough that we were abused – but it is even worse, when I feel like I am wrong for questioning my childhood.  To top it off, I then feel like an idiot for not recognizing sooner that this is abnormal.   :oops:

As an aside with the “D” label – ooohhhh I saw red when my B said that about his daughter.  My sis does the same thing with one of her children.  It is so, so sad.  I was seeing how these diseased patterns get carried from generation to generation.  Broke my heart because I could see these 2 babies getting the same label we did.

Hope – thank you so much for your kind words.  I think I need to start trusting myself more.  You know – the biggest eye-opener to my childhood was having children.  In so many ways I realized that I would never, ever do to my children the things my parents did to me as a child – and from this, started to realize how badly I had been treated.  I sometimes wonder if I ever would have gotten to this level of awareness had I not had children.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interestingly, I had a dream last night, I very rarely dream (or if I dream I rarely remember it).  But this one was so realistic and stayed with me, so I think there is a message in it. 

I was sitting on a mountain looking down on a town.  I was alone.  People were bustling around, doing their everyday things, and having a good time.  In the far distance a huge fair ground complete with a Ferris wheel and tents and flags blowing in the wind.

It was so realistic that I can remember the scent of the mountain air and the coarse stickiness of the grass I was sitting on. I could hear the faint laughter and the murmur of voices carried by the wind.   

Behind me was a house, modern in design with beautiful arching windows.  I knew that I was moving and that I needed to go finish packing up.  I started to stand up, but was suddenly afraid, as the hill I was sitting on turned into a very steep cliff and I am terrified of heights. 

I desperately started clawing my way up that cliff, with terror churning in my stomach, and all of a sudden three men came – they were beautiful.  They were strong, and tall, and emanated such a sense of goodness.  I felt peace in their presence.  Each one gently held onto my arms and helped me climb that cliff and followed me into the house. 

I was walking through the house, and came to one of the rooms I needed to pack.  One of the men walked up to one of the walls and said do you remember when we painted this?  Remember the profanity that was written all over the walls?  And I suddenly remembered F*** Y** painted in huge red dripping letters on the wall.  I also remembered painting over it and feeling shame at what was on the walls and at covering it up.  He said, I am sorry, I wrote that profanity. 

We were interrupted by the phone, which started to ring with this shrill, high-pitched, incessant, demanding sound. It was my father.  He started screaming at me on the phone.  Where have you been, what are you doing – how dare you, it got really nasty, but I don’t remember exactly what was said.  I screamed F*** Y** into the phone and slammed it down.  My heart was racing and I had another panic attack – I was so terrified that I hung up on him.  Then I woke up.

I am not sure what all of this means.  I have to think all of this over.

Thank you all so much for listening to me ramble and for your advice.  This is a really great place (with many thanks to Dr. G and all of you who have taken the time to write and tell your stories – it helps, a lot).

Peace

- Life is a journey not a destination

JanetLG

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2007, 12:27:29 PM »
Peace,

You are not rambling, you are putting the pieces of the jig-saw together.

But you haven't got the box lid for it.

Some of us can help with the borders, or the easy bits, but possibly only Hops can help with those tricky bits of cloudy sky that all look the same! :)

I don't know what your dream meant, but it sounds so vivid, I'm sure someone will have an insight on that.

Janet

towrite

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2007, 12:39:43 PM »
Dear FP - normal? Not even close. I asked about N parents - see my post about it - seeming to make me, the female, more the recipient of their N cruelty than my brothers. I remember one time my middle brother asked to borrow my brand new car. Unbeknownst to him, I had just lent it to my little brother who had, moments before, come back to tell me he'd run into a light pole with it. I was sitting in a chair absorbing this - no parents home - when the other brother came in with a friend and asked to borrow it. When I said "No" and began to explain, he walked over to my a slugged me in the jaw so hard I tumbled over the arm of the chair and landed on the floor. I heard my brother turn to his friend and say, "I didn't hit her - I didn't touch her."

The point is, when my mother came back, I, with a black/blue lump on my face, went to her and told her what happened. She looked at me, and asked, "What do you expect me to do?" They did nothing, it was never mentioned.

It was like the time earlier when he had fired a loaded pistol at the back of my head and they did nothing. Fortunately it was loaded with blanks, but he didn't know that.

Turns out my parents were scared of him. Maybe yours were scared of your brother??

towrite
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finding peace

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2007, 02:14:47 PM »
Towrite: 

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

((((((((Towrite, you have been through hell))))))))))

I don't think my parents were scared of my brother - they just catered to him.  My father hated women and my mom was an emotional infant with a cruel streak who was so desperate for attention that she threw me to the wolves to get the attention she craved.

Posted on the thread you mentioned.

Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

finding peace

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Re: Need a normalcy check - please help!
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2007, 02:40:49 PM »
Authentic,

Quote
"You are observing and alone" 
Quote

Yes, yes, yes.  At a very young age I shut myself off from experiencing life (very much like Twiggy).  I always participated in life from a distance - as an observer.  The town and people represent that life and maybe where I am headed.


Quote
You are moving on in your life.  You need to pack (wrap up unfinished emotional business) and you know this but you are afraid of being carried away by life.  Unfinished emotional business has taken on life challenging proportions -- a cliff that you must scale, even being deathly afraid of heights.
Quote

I am moving on  - and I am afraid both of life (being harmed again) and of the unfinished business that I need to address - double edged sword.

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Who are these men?
Quote

I don't know.  This part is stumping me.  I had the feeling that these men represented spirituality, or spiritual guides, but that isn't quite it.  You mentioned that I felt safe with them.  And that is spot on - but you know, I have never felt totally safe with anyone, ever.  I will have to think on this one.   

I am standing at the precipice of a huge change in life, and you are right, I think that I do need to resolve issues that my father left behind before I can join life once again.  The issue I think coming through in the dream was anger - the F*** Y** painted on the wall that I felt shame at seeing and at covering - and the terror I felt when I said those same words to my F on the phone. 

I am terrified of my own anger - and I need to get past this. [on edit - I am terrified and ashamed of my anger - and am terrified of other's anger.]

Authentic - Thank you so much - that was so helpful!   
Peace
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 03:11:48 PM by finding peace »
- Life is a journey not a destination