I gotta ask...porno and N's

[dandylife]

Bella,

Power can be a huge issue in any relationship - esp. a love relationship. And the perception (or illusion) of power.

I am actually one of those "part of the problem" people as someone said who doesn't feel porn is a huge issue.

I don't know if it's because I'm great at dissociation or that I truly don't care if my partner looks at porn.

I have molestation in my background - so the issue for me is "Is this person respecting my desire to have sex now or not?" "Are they ASSUMING they can just have sex with me because they decided?" So actually for me, having porn around can take the pressure off.

And, I would be very very upset if someone came into my house and took away my romance/erotic novels just because someone arbitrarily decided they were "porn". Women and men have totally different brains - men are turned on (generally) by visual stimuli - women tactile.

I have to disagree about the "problem industry" of porn - and I'm NOT NOT NOT talking child porn - that IS the most disgusting and deplorable thing on earth. The true porn industry has strict 18 and over standards. At that age in the US of A I have to say it is a choice to get into - and these young people are businesspeople who are like athletes in a way - they only have those golden years until their bodies are not what they used to be. 18 years old....McDonalds.....or a few hours in front of a camera for big bucks? These people are not being exploited, they are making financial and time choices. And it IS their choice to take a chance on health issues - they are over 18 and most of the filmmakers require condoms.

Anyway - sorry to be devil's advocate. I am interested in the new studies coming out they are doing on pedophiles in prison. I am keeping an eye out because if there IS a relationship between porn and crime - I would have to change my view.

And I also agree that porn is very bad for the OCD or true addict - it can destroy marriages and relationships if not in moderation - only a slice of the "sex" life.

Please don't throw tomatoes!

Dandylife

[Bella_French]

Bella,

Power can be a huge issue in any relationship - esp. a love relationship. And the perception (or illusion) of power.

I am actually one of those "part of the problem" people as someone said who doesn't feel porn is a huge issue.

I don't know if it's because I'm great at dissociation or that I truly don't care if my partner looks at porn.

I have molestation in my background - so the issue for me is "Is this person respecting my desire to have sex now or not?" "Are they ASSUMING they can just have sex with me because they decided?" So actually for me, having porn around can take the pressure off.

And, I would be very very upset if someone came into my house and took away my romance/erotic novels just because someone arbitrarily decided they were "porn". Women and men have totally different brains - men are turned on (generally) by visual stimuli - women tactile.

I have to disagree about the "problem industry" of porn - and I'm NOT NOT NOT talking child porn - that IS the most disgusting and deplorable thing on earth. The true porn industry has strict 18 and over standards. At that age in the US of A I have to say it is a choice to get into - and these young people are businesspeople who are like athletes in a way - they only have those golden years until their bodies are not what they used to be. 18 years old....McDonalds.....or a few hours in front of a camera for big bucks? These people are not being exploited, they are making financial and time choices. And it IS their choice to take a chance on health issues - they are over 18 and most of the filmmakers require condoms.

Anyway - sorry to be devil's advocate. I am interested in the new studies coming out they are doing on pedophiles in prison. I am keeping an eye out because if there IS a relationship between porn and crime - I would have to change my view.

And I also agree that porn is very bad for the OCD or true addict - it can destroy marriages and relationships if not in moderation - only a slice of the "sex" life.

Please don't throw tomatoes!

Dandylife

Dandylife, I think this is a personal decision between a couple, and no one else's opinion needs to come into it. If you both feel informed and  ok about it, then really that is all that matters in your relationship.

X bella

[Bella_French]

[q]Because although I have a right to tell him how his behavior makes me feel,

I have no right to expect or demand that he change for my sake.  [/q]

Authentic, this line is taken from the quote in your post (that I was responding to). The rest of the quote pretty much elaborates on this assertion. I think the fact that it states a woman has `no right' to change her spouses behavior is what I disagree with.

I also disagree with the idea that an adult cannot change their behavior and adapt to their partner when it is harming the relationship.

I do agree that it takes two people, and that both people need to agree.

X bella

[reallyME]

I think, in the sense of wanting a man to change, I can agree that I have a right to expect something even from a dysfunctional man...it's sort of a faith thing...believing in what I don't YET see, calling those things that BE NOT as though they are.

On the other hand, there comes a time, when every person needs to decide, IF MY SPOUSE does not change, am I willing to live with him/her as he/she is.

In my spiritual way of seeing things, I can believe that God can "turn a heart of stone to a heart of flesh,"  whereas, in my logical-thinking, psychological-knowing mind, it seems very unlikely to happen to an extent that will improve things greatly for us.

At this point, I have chosen to see my husband as a human being who has very distorted, flawed thinking, says odd things out of the blue, can't understand why I hurt, laugh, cry, feel certain ways...basically, I am now viewing my  husband as DYSFUNCTIONAL, and not being surprised, when he ACTS that way.

I once heard preached in church "What do you EXPECT from a sinner?  Sinners SIN...that's what they DO, cause that's who they ARE!"

I'm not saying people living with abusers must stay.  I'm saying, in my situation, which does not involve physical abuse, I've decided to view it realistically and to stop expecting "normalcy" from an "abnormal" human being.

~Laura

[Bella_French]

Oh, I see Bella,

Yes, then we can agree to disagree huh? 

And no hard feelings.

I do believe a woman has the right as ASK that someone make a change but

yes, I don' believe that a woman  can expect a DYSFUNCTIONAL man to change (or demand from anyone for that matter.)

She might have that expectation of a man who loves and respects her,
who has demonstrated  that he cares for her 

but to have that expectation for a man that is dysfunctional and abusive or narcissistic is fooling herself.

and setting herself up for years and conflict, anguish and unhappiness.

Dear  authentic, I totally agree:) And I want you to know that there are no hard feelings if we disagree on something; you can disagree with me all you like because I deeply value and trust your perspective. I learn and grow from our discussions, authentic, and i am grateful that you give me your precious time and energy. So please don't worry when we disagree; I will always appreciate and respect you.

I didn't say this earlier because there was so much else being discussed, but I can relate to what you said about how awful it is to be with a partner who always wants to change everything about you. i am sorry that you went thought this, authentic. When I was with my ex N bf, after a while, I got the sense that my ex bf didn't want to change me exactly; I think he just wanted to criticize me because it confirmed (in his mind) that he was superior.  I think this is why he would never praise me or admit that the changes I made for him were exactly what he had asked for,  because then he would have to let go of his barrage of criticism (which I think he was kind of addicted to). Was it anything like that for you too?

Hugs to you,

X Bella

[JanetLG]

Bella,

"I think power counts. So the answer to the whole pornography issue, is get more money and power than your porn addicted partner. Then ask him to quit porn, and see the result. (I am only sort of joking)"

In the relationship with my Nboyfriend, this is exactly how I managed to get away from him. At the time, we were both earning (I earned double what he did). So, when I found out about the porn, I had the 'upper hand', which is unusual in male/female relationships, from a financial point of view. In the end, I 'bought him out' of our jointly-owned house, and he went back to his mother, and I kept the house, paying the mortgage on my own (which I'd always done anyway, as he wouldn't - only now it was official).

I just think it's so unfair that this is such an unusual situation.


Janet

[JanetLG]

Authentic,

"Janet, he moved in with his Mom?      Now, why doesn't that surprise me?"

When I met this 'man' (for want of a better word), he was 19 and I was 22. We bought our house very soon after meeting (bad move). WHENEVER we argued (and it was often - always 'my' fault), he'd ''retreat' to his mother's to 'punish' me. I got so used to it, that during the rare times that he was actually living with me, if we were talking to people and he referred to the house as 'his' I'd raise my eyebrows and ask 'Are you SURE? But you hardly ever live there  - you're always at your mothers!' He used to 'call in' at his mum's on the way home from work, and she'd feed him, so he had two dinners each night, till I found out and stopped cooking for him as well (I'd wondered why his weight had gone from 182 pounds to 252 pounds in a year).

He often used to say 'I love my Mum', but only said that he loved me when he wanted sex.

When he once said to me during an argument 'I just don't like women', I said 'what about your Mum, then?' and he said 'She's different. She's a real woman.'

What on earth was THAT supposed to mean!

Talk about angel/whore dichotomy!

 

Janet

[Certain Hope]

I think, in the sense of wanting a man to change, I can agree that I have a right to expect something even from a dysfunctional man...it's sort of a faith thing...believing in what I don't YET see, calling those things that BE NOT as though they are.

On the other hand, there comes a time, when every person needs to decide, IF MY SPOUSE does not change, am I willing to live with him/her as he/she is.

In my spiritual way of seeing things, I can believe that God can "turn a heart of stone to a heart of flesh,"  whereas, in my logical-thinking, psychological-knowing mind, it seems very unlikely to happen to an extent that will improve things greatly for us.

Dear Laura,

This is where I was in the midst of NPD-ex... believing that it was possible, but doubting whether N would allow God to be God, since he'd already filled that position within his own life. Since then, I've experienced within myself the turning of a heart to stone to one of flesh... and I see that a person truly has to come to the end of him/her-self before that is possible. And this:

At this point, I have chosen to see my husband as a human being who has very distorted, flawed thinking, says odd things out of the blue, can't understand why I hurt, laugh, cry, feel certain ways...basically, I am now viewing my  husband as DYSFUNCTIONAL, and not being surprised, when he ACTS that way.

I once heard preached in church "What do you EXPECT from a sinner?  Sinners SIN...that's what they DO, cause that's who they ARE!"

I'm not saying people living with abusers must stay.  I'm saying, in my situation, which does not involve physical abuse, I've decided to view it realistically and to stop expecting "normalcy" from an "abnormal" human being.

~Laura

Thank you for the reminder. It's also where I was, trying to come to terms with all that he wasn't... but the thing is - N would not allow that.
He would not allow me to relate to him as a human being. If I would not feed his illusion that his mask was the real "him", then I was not to be permitted to live. Maybe he realy was npd plus... I don't know. I only know that when I came to this point that you describe, he wanted me dead.
Please use caution... because it was when I stopped trying to deal with him as a functional human being that he really became dangerous.

With love,
Hope

[Certain Hope]

Hope,

That was exactly my experience.  I spent years and years and years, trying to relate to my NH as though he were basically functional but just socially backward.  When I finally GOT it and realized that he had a personality disorder, I gave up.  I realized it wasnt going to get better, no matter what I did, and that I had wasted enough of my life trying. 

I got involved in other things.  I didnt engage when he wanted to argue with me--I didnt try to convince him of how unreasonable he was being.  The last big conversation we had when I was completely calm while he ranted on and on, he ended with "I just can't live with you like this".  And then it escalated and it was very scary.  And then the marriage was over.

It's kinda like, if you are going to get healthy yourself, you are going to have to come to the point where you quit trying to change the person.  But when you do that, you change the sick dynamic in the marriage where the N projects his stuff off onto you.  And then all the stuff is in him--and its really bad.

CB

Yes, CB... thank you for expressing it so clearly.

It's really something... when I thought for awhile that he was bpd, he was okay with that. I had all kinds of fact sheets printed up and he basked in all of it.
In fact, his behaviour actually improved for awhile... I suppose because I was willing to make allowances for some of his nonsense as being part of his condition.
Of course, that rapidly deteriorated, and as soon as he knew that I was getting info on npd, the whole picture changed. I was still trying to pacify him, but I remember him sitting here one day and spitting out at me, "I am NOT a narcissist." Yeah huh... then I knew for sure.

Hope

[reallyME]

Of course, that rapidly deteriorated, and as soon as he knew that I was getting info on npd, the whole picture changed. I was still trying to pacify him, but I remember him sitting here one day and spitting out at me, "I am NOT a narcissist." Yeah huh... then I knew for sure.

When I would talk to Kay about her issues and behavior, she was fine, letting me know that Father was working on it with her (Father, being God).  As long as I told her how I looked up to her and hung on her every word, all was well.  As soon as I began asking her questions about Narcissistic Personality Disorder, she jumped all over me, saying "Anything other than THIS, I can accept and see, but I AM NOT A NARCISSIST, Laura!  NUH UH!  Narcissists are PSYCHOTIC and I'm not THAT!"

The weird thing was, I'd read her examples from a book about a narcissistic woman, and Kay could tell me that "if that mother keeps on finding her worth in the daughter, she will grow up to be very conceited and punishing," yet, Kay could not see that the girl in the book was HER!  She still probably can't.

~L

[Ami]

My  N M is a therapist who sent me an article on N's. She said, "SEE, I am not an N."        Hugs    Ami

[axa]

Just dipping in and out of threads but need to respond to this.

When one is nothing other than an object in a sexual relationship it is about power.  Thank you for putting this in black and white.  Now I see it.  There has to be a violence in it.  It is nothing about connection, intimacy and love.  It is about being used.  Taken me a while to acknowledge this. 

I believe it is connected with the whore/madonna model.  I think showing that I had needs and desires put me in the "whore" category and because of his inability to seperate he was contaminated by my normal needs.

To lie there and take what he did made me nothing to him other than one of those blow up dolls.  I think he probably wished he could let the air out of me and hide me in a cupboard until he needed me again.  Boy, this is making me feel ill.  To want anything was an over the top demand in his eyes.  Thank God I spoke for myself and am now free.

axa

[JanetLG]

Axa,

I am so sorry you had the same kind of experience that I had with an unfeeling 'android'.

Your earlier post really triggered things for me. Now that I have got away from my previous violent relationship, I can see it much more clearly. When I was in it, like you, I couldn't understand why I was never valued, or why I was seen as a whore (while being 'frigid', apparently, at the same time  ) .

I'm glad you are free from that awful relationship, too. I'm really glad you saw what needed to be done.

Janet

[Hopalong]

(((((CB)))))

I have a feeling "and then it escalated" covers a very very bad time for you.
I'm so sorry hon.

The only good news is that it's only a memory. And you will build a proper memorial and only visit now and then, okay?

lots of love and sisterhood,
Hops

[axa]

Janet,

I too am so glad to be out of it.  I just hope that if I ended up in a similiar situation that I would run like the wind.  I am struck by reading this thread about the split that was going on in myself.  The knowing it was bad and abusive and the "hope" that it would get better.  I believe that abusers do not change, seems like a huge statement but this is what I believe and has been my experience.  I always doubt my gut, give the benefit of the doubt instead of trusting myself.  I know if I had read a story about my experience I would be thinking what the hell is that person doing in that relationship.  I guess I felt that I did not deserve any better.

I bought into others view of the relationship.  As far as they were concerned I had met a guy who was wealthy, wanted me to travel with him, smart etc.  but the truth was he was mean, sadistic, abusive.  I tried to rationalise the relationship, weigh up what was acceptable and put up with what was not.  I think those who have not experienced N relationships just cannot imagine the systematic undermining and the love bombing which goes on.  The same devices used in cults.  God, how desperate I was for any kind of "love"

axa