How do you know for sure?

[Learning]

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[Anonymous]

Learning,

There's no way to know for absolute certain if your parents are Ns, since you can't give them a psychiatric evaluation. It's more of a decision you make based on their behavior over time.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Dear Learning,

Yes, I think that some of it may be due to your voicelessness.  When one is voiceless, as many of us here are (or WERE!) you are not used to expressing your thoughts, feelings or opinions.  They are provided by the one or ones that try to keep you voiceless.

From what I have read here, most of us are dealing with N-type people that have not been officially diagnosed.  Getting an N diagnosed is no easy thing !!  They usually will not go for therapy and even when they do, they are very adept at behaving as their "image" would and not as their true self (that is....the one YOU have to deal with.)  Also, they just plain lie a lot.

So, I wouldn't really worry about the LABEL part of it.  If you can relate to what is being said here, then you are probably dealing with someone who is Narcissistic in some way.  If you can relate, you probably are voiceless in some way because of the way someone has treated you.  The name for what they are doesn't matter as much as the fact that you have now recognized your "voicelessness" and are searching for a way to heal.  THAT is what is important.

And really.....if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck......it probably is a duck, isn't it ??

So, welcome Learning.....I like your name 'cause that's what we are all trying to do here.

[Anonymous]

Welcome Learning,

Well, I can certainly understand your concern.  I have a difficult time with labels too.  I want to be careful not to dehuamize or depersonalize my loved ones.  One day in my therapist's office I said  said, "I don't know whether this classifies as 'abuse', or 'narcissism.'  I just know he is driving me nuts!!!"

She said, it is indeed both, but the important part of that was that I had just validated my own experience! She went on to explain that lables help us to make sense of, validate, and interact differently with our experience.  

Still not wanting to pin my experience on anyone but myself, my next question was, "Well, if someone is presenting such symptoms of having been emotionally abused, is there any possibility that it is in fact all in their head, or that abuse or narcissism is not to blame?"  
She said "no."  (In my mind I am still not certain about this one) but then maybe that is MY voicelessness coming through again!

All Ns are not alike in the manifestation of their behavior.  I believe there is a scale of intensity, and different personalities of narcissism, if you will.  I think in comparison, my H's N is mild, but it effects me negatively nonetheless. Relating to and learning from others on this board is much needed validation and understanding, even if my experience only shares some commonalities. I have learned that my parents have some N tendancies. If nothing else, this explains a lot about who I am, and how I became so voiceless.  Understanding, or finding a frame of referrence is the first step, for me, to doing something different.

The other benefits are learning strategies for relating to the N behavioral tendancies in my life.  And, knowing that other people have had the courage to say "enough" and draw mild to serious boundaries. This enables me to feel less guilty about self-preservation, at least. This is a supportive community.  When you run out of strength and wisdom, others will lend you some of theirs.  Lots of people here have a lot more wisdom about this stuff than I do, and how wonderful that everyone is willing to share with and support one another.  Lots of people here are compassionate readers.

Does that help at all or make any sense?  I hope to see more of you, and I hope that you can sojourn here for a while and gather some strength and healing!

Peace, sjkravill

[Wildflower]

Hi sjkravill,

Still not wanting to pin my experience on anyone but myself, my next question was, "Well, if someone is presenting such symptoms of having been emotionally abused, is there any possibility that it is in fact all in their head, or that abuse or narcissism is not to blame?"
She said "no." (In my mind I am still not certain about this one) but then maybe that is MY voicelessness coming through again!

What an interesting conversation.  I think I’m going to bring that up at my next session because I’ve been curious for a while about how/when my therapist knew that narcissism was something I should look into.  I know what you mean about whether it's in your head or not (am I the crazy one?  did I make them behave in crazy ways?).

To add more to your therapist’s statement, this quote from When You and Your Mother Can’t Be Friends helped me find the confidence I needed to be able to remain firm with my own understanding of my relationship with my mom - instead of becoming completely crippled with self-doubt, which is what usually happens.

"'In almost all cases, it is the psychological consequences of an act that define that act as abusive,' whether that act is sexual or physical abuse, or merely an assault on the spirit. "

Wildflower

[sjkravill]

Wildflower,
Thanks for that quote.  That is helpful.
The funny/sad/strange thing is that often I don't trust what my therapist says until I read it somewhere...
I think I am most hesitant to buy in on something when on some level I don't want what she says to be true...  hmm...
Thanks for the thoughts!  Peace, sjkravill

[Anonymous]

Hello Learning and all,

Sjkravill, funny, I have a different kind of doubt with my therapist.  Every time I leave until the time I return I wonder, will she still want me to be her client?  Am I worthy?  This is what my wonderful childhood did for me....seeker

[Singer]

Does anyone have any knowledge/experience regarding how to be confident that narcissism is what they are dealing with?

Thanks!
Learning

Learning,

What brought it home to me was when my NMother turned on her "favorite" grandson. Narcissists truly are not capable of love. That can be hard to spot because they can act very loving when they want to. And anyone can be cranky, or act thoughtlessly from time to time, most everyone does. But it's much more than that. A child especially knows when he or she is not loved. It's an absence that can be felt on a gut level. Something just doesn't "ring true".

Singer

[sjkravill]

Sjkravill, funny, I have a different kind of doubt with my therapist. Every time I leave until the time I return I wonder, will she still want me to be her client? Am I worthy? This is what my wonderful childhood did for me....seeker

Hey Seeker,  I am sorry you have to think about this, or that this is a natural progression.  
I have feel something similar.  I often wonder if my therapist is tierd of seeing me or frustrated with me, or board to tears with me, because I think my progress is so slow.  I especially freak out about this if she suggests I come back after more time than usual. I think, "maybe she feels at a loss with me, like she nees a break from me."  Now that you mention it, this may well be a childhood issue...
 I wonder if others who struggle with voicelessness have similar anxiety about therapy. Have you ever spoken with your therapist about this?  I never have with mine... maybe I will sometime.
Thanks for sharing!  Peace, sjkravill

[Wildflower]

Hi seeker,

Sjkravill, funny, I have a different kind of doubt with my therapist. Every time I leave until the time I return I wonder, will she still want me to be her client? Am I worthy? This is what my wonderful childhood did for me....

Oh boy, me, too.  I keep waiting for my therapist to come out with it and tell me how horrible I am and how horrible it was to sit through my endless blabbing about myself.  It's been four years and I'm only now starting to believe her when she says she wants to be there to support me - cos I never got support growing up.  (Is this a trick??)

{EDIT: wow sjkravill, you too?   I just posted this immediately when I read it...didn't get to your posting.  Geez.  That's it.  I'm going to bring this up at my next session.  Time to face this demon.}

Wildflower

[Portia]

Seeker, thank you for saying that. Now I really don’t feel so alone! Seeker, you’re one of the ‘original members’ to me, one I look up to and for you to say that is…humbling for me, realising we really are all in this together. No-one ‘better’ than the others, nobody necessarily more advanced up the healing road…just all different, with different experiences, but with the fact that we were in some way abused, sadly, in common.

  I have a problem with authority figures! Like you and Dr G – I think you know more than me and therefore I treat you both with distance….with a jokey disrespect…gonna try and stop that. Darn. (If I let the authority figures close to me, they’ll take advantage, like my step-dad won’t they?)

When I wonder if my mother really is an N, I think (sometimes, on a good day) does it matter? What matters is that I know for absolutely sure that I was an emotionally abused child – and need to get better. That's all I need to know for sure.

And hey what you guys think about what your therapists think about you …. I think the same about this board!!!!! Ha ha ha! Won’t post too much today, won’t take up too much room on the board ….don’t want people to get fed up with me…. And so on. When I get 4 posts at the top with my name on – I have to stop out of worry that I post too much! Ha ha ha. Shaking head. Hiya Learning, Singer and Caroline and Michelle from previous threads, I’m reading you all, ready to learn from everybody and anybody without exception!   P

[Learning]

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[seeker]

Hello again everyone,

Portia, you make me blush!  I think you've definitely earned your own set of N board stripes.  

Wildflower and Sjkravill: the little hairs on my arms stood on end when I read your replies.  Wow.  I know my reaction to therapy is in my own head and not something coming from the therapist.  I'm glad I put it out there on the board and found out you feel something similar.  S, you're right, it is a progression.  I had felt this before but now I feel strong and aware enough to take a look at this reaction.  

To Learning and everyone: I think labels help when looking for information and perhaps to containerize the whole big mess.  Sjkravill, guest, and bunny are on target in getting us to focus on our reactions as well as to the actions of others.  Because of the lack of empathy, Ns really don't know what the "unintended consequences" (reactions) are to their actions.  Some don't really intend to hurt, they just need to control so they don't get hurt.  This is yer garden-variety self-absorbed N.  It's the really aggressive ones that do know what they are doing that are scary...I don't know if my NSIL is borderline or not, but the information I read about how to cope with it was enlightening and useful.  

Lastly, the fact that Learning is asking "How do you know for sure?" is so poignantly ACON (a question of self-doubt and caring).  Learning, if you can accept your parents behavior without harming yourself and it doesn't get in the way of your self-care, then more power to you.  If they are eroding away at your soul and existence and are truly toxic, only you can know because it is how you feel that is part of the equation.  The new knowledge for most ACONs is that their feelings do indeed count.

Thanks everybody.  This has really helped me.  Seeker

[Singer]

Dear Singer--

Thank you for your response!

What brought it home to me was when my NMother turned on her "favorite" grandson.

I think I can relate to how you feel about that.  Is her favorite grandson your son?  This is a big fear of mine.  My mother acts like she loves my daughters, especially the oldest one (because she is her first grandchild).  I am so afraid that she will hurt my daughter.  I have cut off visitations since January, but I don't know if I have the resolve to keep up with it.  The flipside is that my daughter loves my mother.  I am lost on how to handle the whole situation.

No, her favorite grandson was my sister's son. My mother spent a lot of time with him while he was growing up. Less time as he got older and my sister realized that NMother was pumping him for information to prove that Sis was a "Bad Mother" (thereby reinforcing her position as the One and True "Good Mother")  Result: very confused and troubled adolescent boy who finally at the age of 28 is trying to put his life back together.

My own two daughters spent very little time alone with Grandma, not because I knew what the problem was, but because I  knew something was just not right. Instinct maybe? Anyway it's ok that your daughter loves her grandmother. Mine loved their grandmother too, and accepted that they didn't need to stay over at grandma and grampa's too often because wouldn't it be more fun if we had them over to our house?

They are both in their twenties now and have seen enough of Grandma's escalating antics to form their own opinions. I'm sure they still love her, but it's tinged with the sadness that comes when you have to give up your illusions. Part of growing up.

Hang in there and stay sane!

Singer

[sjkravill]

Hey Seeker and Wildflower,
You are both going to approach the issue of not feeling worthy with your therapists.  Good for you!  I don't think I am there yet.  I am still too afraid that I might be accurate in my perception... Or that my saying so would cause the therapist to think "damn! she's worse off than I thought!... woe is me! ... I need another break! " Seriously, I don't have the courage for that conversation yet!  I am giggling at my own rediculousness... Sometimes its either laugh or cry, you know?

Hey Portia, I worry that I am posting here too much too, even though I think it is a tool that we can each use as much as we need for healing. We are afterall being empowered to have a voice! I judge others much less than I judge myself. For what it's worth, I like hearing your voice.  I appreciate your honesty. Maybe we could both try to worry less about it...

Hey Learning,
I understand wishing in some wierd sense that your parents were more obviously fitting under some kind of a lable.  I sometimes wish that about my husband, because it would give my experience some kind of valididty or justification (ok, if we're being honest, so that I could get out more easily). But, I also thank God that he is not worse than he is.  Part of me loves him, hopes for change and would never dream of "getting out."  That, and I don't imagine intensified behavior would make the situation easier!

Anyway, I am glad we all have this place to have our voices! Thank you all, as always for your truth.
Peace, sjkravill