Author Topic: Spiritual abuse  (Read 2337 times)

Mati

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Spiritual abuse
« on: September 08, 2007, 11:00:58 AM »
This post is about ministers but it could equally apply to others in a position of authority like a teacher or a doctor, or maybe a midwife (wow I know about that one at the birth of my last son, which still traumatises me on his birthday)

It is aimed at anyone who abuses their power over us in a professional role so counsellors are included. I have had more insights about the problems with my counsellor these last few days and I think that she was re-enacting some of the stuff from her childhood and letting me down when I needed her but at the same time, expecting me to be there for her when she needed someone and using up my time in doing it.This was triggering all sorts of things in me especially abandonment. We had changed to a friendship from the counselling as we got on so well but it ended up very damaging for me. In fact if I was not a Christian the experience with her would have ended any future desires I would have to want to have any friendships. I opened up my heart to her and indeed my home when she said that her boyfriend might throw her out (but failing to tell me at the time that she herself had a house) She also did not call him boyfriend for a long time but said he was a friend she lived with. I don't know why she felt she had to conceal things like this. But she is very sick herself and is in a relationship with a co-dependent (his daughter is a psychopath and he defends her)

But this is about my minister who has seen me a couple of times and has been useful in helping me come to some decisions. But at the same time, he has been a tad judgmental and said something once about me not opening up to him so that he could know how to help me. I think that this was my instinct holding me back and the last contact with him has shown it. How can you force someone or complain if they do not open up? Trust has to be earned.

Anyway, I let it slip that i felt that the church was not meeting my needs. I have no contact with anyone there, they only ask how I am. One of them even asks me if I am working yet (I cannot work through chronic fatigue) They also were not happy when i said that i was allergic to perfumes and the perfumes at church were making me ill. They seemed to be insulted that i should say so. Other churches stop wearing them when someone has my condition. In the US ther e is even a church where they are banned! We are very behind the times over here.

While I have been recovering from the breakdown of my marriage these last 3 years, and where pain from the abuse of my childhood kicked in over abandonment issues, I have been healing, but it is when I come across people who validate my pain and even, praise God, shed tears for me, like on here, it triggers a big healing episode. I now want to be in a caring community to carry on healing and was planning to go to Germany where they have many communities.

My pastor does not agree with this even though I have told him I am seeking God's will and not my own. He thinks that there is no reason why I should not stay where I am, even though it means isolation and not much hope of changing that as i do not get out much and certainly not often to church.

He is extremely insensitive when it comes to what I have told him about my past and has given the muted response. His theology is that God sends everything to us for a reason - molestation even unbelievably! :x And we should just accept things. We have had many a disagreement about my marriage where i say that I disobeyed God at the time as i was backsliding, but he thinks it was God's will for me. God, I wonder  how bad he thinks I am to be punished so much!

My time at this church is finished now I think, I don't see how I can go back again. The pastor said he would talk to  me next week (after saying in the e-mail do not reply - I have already spent all afternoon writing this to you  :shock:) I have calmed down now and think that I should ask him in what way have I been at fault in not responding. Maybe it is something that I am blinding myself over.

But i now know that he is spiritually abusive. He has no right to tell me who i am or how I 'should' behave. And he has no right to deny my feelings and say I should not have them. I told him in my e-mail that I was a bit concerned as i was feeling that i was weary with fighting against wanting to give up he said

Quote
please not that giving up is not a symptom, it is an attitude.And we are in complete charge of our atitiudes. It is atheistic psychololocial nonsense to say we have not. Especially the Christian's spirit is subject to him (1 Cor 14).

I am so pleased that I have rejected what he has said (not to him) and know he is abusing his position where he should be encouraging and being at least a bit gentle with me knowing all of the trauma i have been through.

But a hint of criticism, when I said that I thought that most Christians care more for their families than others like me who are single which he has taken personally as I had also said I was finding things a bit tough, he responded by e-mail that he had his MIL is staying and he was busy but if I had to he would see me, and then he turns to attack mode blaming me for what I am feeling instead. I wonder if many leaders are NPD?
 
I also want to add that i did get some more validation from a group who help families whose members are on drugs (mine are( I only went once as it is a long journey but when i told me minister he was very unhappy indeed that I said that I got help from a non Christian source.

Just seen you post Hope is this what you meant?

love
Mati
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 11:14:51 AM by Mati »

BonesMS

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Re: Spiritual abuse
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2007, 11:59:19 AM »
Oh boy!!  This pushes a LOT of buttons for me given that I just graduated and one of my comps involved the Code of Ethics and Dual Relationships!!!!!  I'm applauding you for standing up for yourself!!!!  Counselors, ministers, doctors, etc. who violate clients' boundaries this way are doing more harm than good, which is also an ethical violation.  The BIGGEST thing that was emphasized in my Ethics class was "DO NO HARM!"  I've been in a similar situation and I made the decision to FIRE my therapist.  I felt a LOT better afterwards!

Just my two cents.

Bones
Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

Certain Hope

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Re: Spiritual abuse
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2007, 12:17:12 PM »
Dear Mati,

Yes, this is what I meant. Thank you for starting the thread.

The first thought I have is from the Scripture... "to whom much is given, much shall be required."
So many people who are supposed to be ministers of the Word of God forget the most basic principles of what it's all about -
loving God and loving people. Since I wasn't raised with those principles, I never learned to apply them myself, and so for many, many years all I knew was a stinking, dead religion. But now I know for a fact that very, very few ministers are trained and equipped for counseling... so they're ignorant, right? And ignorance can be educated... if they would only admit, "I don't know"... and then dig into the Bible and prayer for themselves for the answers. Sadly, that's where the abuse begins - with the refusal of leaders to face their own fear of the unknown and work through it, by God's grace, to the point where they can be of some help to others. The "pat" answers of people who don't really know God themselves do so much damage... it sickens me.

I'm so sorry you've experienced this lack of support, as I have, also... many times, throughout the years.
Mostly, what I was never taught was the fundamental truth which could have exposed so many lies of a lifetime... and that truth is:
God is good. He doesn't send this abusive, painful stuff to us for a reason. What He does is to work these horrible traumas out to our good, as we love Him and are called according to His purpose. There is such a huge difference between those two perspectives, but those who live in unbelief of God's goodness and mercy and love do not have that truth within them to share. Woe to those who bring harm to the Lord's children; woe to those shepherds who lead the sheep astray.

I want a minister/pastor who will take me straight into God's Word and help me learn how to apply that to my life.
Here is a bit from my own notes, about a Bible passage I've just explored recently...


"The letter to the Hebrews ends with an exhortation to the church about the believers' attitude to the pastor and with it you get further insight into what a pastor has to be engaged in. Paul writes,

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account."
Hebrews 13:17

The imperative translated "obey" is from the word peitho, "to persuade." In the middle voice, used here, Thayer's lexicon gives its meaning as "to suffer one's self to be persuaded." Again there is no thought of a right to command someone against his will, but the clear thrust is that leaders are persuaders whose ability to persuade arises not from a smooth tongue or a dominant personality, but from a personal walk which evokes respect.


Does that not say it all? It does to me!
When the pastor and other leadership of a church group are not themselves in submission to God and walking their talk, that's where I've found members of the congregation who behave as what you've described... only wanting the most superficial of connection and taking offense so easily - like at your simple request re: perfume. No minister can tell you what is God's will for your life, apart from clear reference to the Scriptures. These people are supposed to be leading others to God Himself, not into their own fellowship or denomination, with the idea that their group is to rule over individuals.

It is never God's will that we should sin and I hope you know that it is not His will for you to be punished... that God is not angry with you... that He took all of that wrath out on Jesus at the cross, and as we are in Christ, we are freed from all that anger against sin.
I know that it was not God's will that I should marry npd-ex. There is no doubt in my mind that I was deceived by the devil. It seems completely wrong to me that your pastor would tell you it was God's will for you to marry a man in a backslidden condition, and also completely wrong for him to omit telling you that we are never faced with a temptation without God's providing a way out of it, if only we will trust Him.
He provided a way out for me with npd-ex, who would not live with boundaries (little things like "thou shalt not kill") and so he filed for divorce.

I'm also amazed at the arrogance of your minister telling you that he's spent all afternoon writing to you, so don't bother him again. What a jerk.
Sounds to me like he's disgusted with his mother-in-law (and likely with his wife, as well) and taking his frustrations and anger toward them out on you.

"Giving up is not a symptom, it is an attitude" ??!!!???
I must say:  Duh!!

Has this man not heard of spiritual warfare? Does he not recognize the clear signs of a spiritual attack by the enemy of our souls?
Good grief, if he doesn't know that there's a war going on, how can he help anyone? Including himself?

((((((((Mati))))))))  I believe that you have seen clearly what is happening with this minister, this group... it just sounds dead to me, with no life of the Holy Spirit coming to bear on the lives of the people there.

Love,
Hope


cats paw

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Re: Spiritual abuse
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2007, 12:29:26 PM »
Hello,

   My brother has spent most of his adult life in prison for non-physically violent offenses, a lot of what I suppose could be termed "white-collar" crime.

   He does well in prison, and is an upstanding citizen there.  The reason he is back in prison is that the prison chaplain opened his home to him when my brother's time was up, and guess what happened?  Yep, my brother ripped him off.

   I feel so badly for my brother and my family, and all the victims along the way.  Even the ones who "should" have known better.

   Thought Bones MS, in particular, might appreciate this.

    Mati- Thank you so much for sharing that. 

    Hope- wonderful response to Mati.

cats paw

cats paw

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Re: Spiritual abuse
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2007, 12:48:40 PM »
Hi Authentic,

  Yes, I saw it performed, years ago, and was very moved- had quiet tears streaming down my face. 

Thanks-

cats paw

 

JanetLG

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Re: Spiritual abuse
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2007, 12:53:53 PM »
Mati,

Your therapist failed you - she stepped on your boundaries, knowing (obviously) that you were weak in that area at the time, because you had shared knowledge with her in her  professional capacity. She had no right to become 'over-friendly' and use you like that.

The pastor is even worse. I suspect you have brought up issues for him in his own marriage, and he is trying to justify things to himself by putting the blame on you. Fortunately, you can see that he is being abusive. I think you need to get away from him, and that church, and find a caring one who will take your concerns seriously. It isn't really a religious issue, either, IMO. Any professional should behave with a degree of objectivity and care, and he isn't doing that.

And your pastor should learn how to spell, too!


Janet

Mati

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Re: Spiritual abuse
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2007, 02:45:48 PM »
Wow what a great response!

Bones thanks for that support. Yes I think that ending it with him will empower me. He has certainly not abided by that ethical standard. I have known him for about 15 years and he has tried to shame me before. I see that now. Yes Hope, few are equipped even for avoiding harm never mind counselling. Woe to those who bring harm to the Lord's children; woe to those shepherds who lead the sheep astray. A scary warning indeed. I am feeling quite apprehesive though as breaking with this church will mean that I have lost touch with nearly everyone I knew before I started to recover. Is this usual?  There are no viable options in my area either because of my ill health I cannot go to anywhere that is noisy or crowded. The Lord has sustained me in the past though when i have not been able to attend church in fact i have grown more spiritually in those  times


There is no doubt in my mind that I was deceived by the devil. Yes me too and what better way to attack the children of God but to get them to marry the wrong person. God gave me the way out as too my ex ended the marriage.

Again there is no thought of a right to command someone against his will, but the clear thrust is that leaders are persuaders whose ability to persuade arises not from a smooth tongue or a dominant personality, but from a personal walk which evokes respect.

Does that not say it all? It does to me!
Oh absolutely! He is displaying that he thinks he has an entitlement here - N trait..

 What a jerk. Thanks so much for validating me.

Has this man not heard of spiritual warfare? Does he not recognize the clear signs of a spiritual attack by the enemy of our souls?
Good grief, if he doesn't know that there's a war going on, how can he help anyone? Including himself?
Absolutely true. Hope thank you so much for your post and wisdom especially for the validation. It has really helped me today and I thank God for it. Yes the church is dead. I thought that i could cope with it as there was nothing else but it is going to delay my recovery staying there. And delaying our recovery is not God's will. Thanks for the hug and everything (((((Hope)))))

cats paw, thanks and yes indeed a wonderful response from Hope.

authentic, his attempts to shame you and make you feel "bad" will fall on deaf ears when you know in face who YOU ARE. Thanks so much for helping me see that he is trying to shame me. I did feel it for a while.That is why I believe seeing people for who they are is key. Yes absolutely, you have hit it on the head, it is that exactly. Oh boy I am learning so much so quickly here. Yes I agree that I must put up that boundary. I have stopped going before for some reason or other, once it was over the perfume but i ended going back.......back.......back....falling into that hole in the road......in every relationship until now. It's scary to be alone though but it is working and I am firmly on the recovery road. 

Your therapist violated major boundaries in even becoming your "friend" in such an intimate way. Well she was concerned at first and said it might be best if we have  6 month break  but gave in to temptation as she was not working at he time so we ended up co-counselling. Now I know that she should not have done it.   See people for who they really are All of my life I have never been able to do this AT ALL but it is really happening now which is wonderful! Know yourself fully - that's the internal work.  The honesty.  The being willing to face your fears and unwanted feelings.  Most people shy away from this but this is NECESSARY!!!

Put up firm boundaries.  Once a person has shown themselves to be toxic or unhealthy in a way that is not good for YOU then protect yourself from it, and you do this NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY!!!
I know this so well now. It is the truth that we must strive for. So few people are on this road.

I'm so glad you're here Smile Oh and I am pleased that you are here too authentic so very pleased and so grateful that you are allowing me to share your wisdom, gained through suffering. A precious gift indeed, thank you.

Janet And your pastor should learn how to spell, too! ROFL!

Yes you are right he is not treating me with objective care. There have been a few times when he has reacted to me out of anger when he has taken something personal and it does not take much. I had not realised that i had been walking on eggshells with him and coming here  made me talk in a more open way which he has reacted to. I think it is definately good-bye to him.

Thank you all so much
love
Mati
xxx

« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 02:49:07 PM by Mati »

JanetLG

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Re: Spiritual abuse
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2007, 03:00:06 PM »
Mati,

"I am feeling quite apprehesive though as breaking with this church will mean that I have lost touch with nearly everyone I knew before I started to recover. Is this usual? "

I hate to say it, but, yes, it is quite usual for those who knew you BEFORE you changed to not like you AFTER you've changed. Not just in a church setting - it happens in lots of social settings. I've had that in my FOO when I put on weight from an anorexic weight to a normal one, and again when I left a salaried job to start self-employment.

It's just threatening, apparently, for people to see someone growing in ways that they feel unable to, so they criticise or withdraw.

I'm sorry it's happening to you. It's very hard to deal with.

Janet

Mati

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Re: Spiritual abuse
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2007, 04:18:59 PM »
Thanks Janet

Knowing that it is usual really helps as I have been torturing myself with why it is happening and blaming myself.

Certain Hope

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Re: Spiritual abuse
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2007, 04:27:43 PM »
Dear Mati,

Personally, I believe that we are called out of dead religion into the light of Christ, from the moment that we're born again from above.
Practically speaking, it takes some time to come to terms with the many startling realities of this drastic change.
There may be some really sincere believers amongst the groups we encounter, but I just know it's so important to fellowship with a group which, first of all - teaches directly from the Bible and not some catalog of dogma, and secondly - a group that's actively engaged in seeking God now, in the present, not stuck in thinking that they've already got Him all sewed up.
I love the whole "church without walls" concept and have seen it work in a few places enough to convince me that this is the way to go.


It's sad that there are so many who have forsaken Christ, who alone is to be their first love,
and become so enmeshed with groups in such unhealthy ways.
To me, so many are modern-day pharisees... teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
But we're told that one of the signs of the last days is that the love of many will grow cold,
and that is exactly what I see happening throughout the visible church.

My most recent encounter with this was this past Spring, when I asked a local pastor to baptise me.
It was a very small body, with not more than 30 in regular attendance, and I felt that God had led me there
because He knows my shyness required such an intimate setting. Most of the people welcomed me enthusiastically
and I was so happy to be there among them... and then... a couple weeks after my baptism, the pastor handed me this
little black book, on my way out of the service. "We'd like you to become a member," he said.
"Ohhh...," I said, "in my ignorance, I'd thought I was a member." But no, in order to be a real part of the group, a voting member, in other words,
I needed to study the "manual". So I did. And I'll tell you... this group clearly doesn't think that the Holy Spirit is up to the job of sanctifying disciples of Christ, because they have obviously determined that they need to do His work for Him.
Ugh. So I told the pastor my specific concerns, at which time he told me how much he needed me to be a member (failing congregation), as though it didn't really matter whether or not I was in complete agreement with the little black book, as long as I filled a seat in the building.
I told him no.
The following Sunday evening, after I did not attend, I received a phone message that he and his wife were driving around our rural area looking for our house, because, he said, "we need to get you back in church".
That settled it for me. I am in no way interested in participating in this guy's charade.

If he doesn't believe his own manual enough to stand up for it, then why did he give it to me?
And then to try to just appear on the scene here and pressure me into agreement?
It's taken me several months to resolve all of this in my shy little pea-brain, to the point where I finally wrote him
a letter detailing all of my objections, to send along with his manual, in the mail.
I included the fact that I did not appreciate it a bit that he took it upon himself to drive around looking for my house,
instead of calling to see whether that would be alright. He knew how timid and mousy I was... and I feel that he was counting on that shock, of him just showing up here, to put me into submissive mode. When God is in a thing, we will never, ever feel manipulated that way.


So I know that you will be better than fine without this group, Mati. When the Holy Spirit convicts us of something, we don't feel tortured by it... there is no condemnation. I really know how scary it is to leave behind the familiar,
but in so many ways it's a necessary part of growth.
As you listen for the voice of God through all this, and ensure that what you're hearing lines up with His written Word, you will receive the guidance you need.

 I do hope that you're able to tie into some solid Bible teaching, because that spiritual nourishment from the Word really is our daily bread.
If you look at http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/ there are so many good ministries with archived messages available.
I'm sure you would find some favorites there.
Also, I am part of a  U.S. fellowship whose website link I can pm to you, if you'd like... if you can stand listening
to the teacher's very pronounced Southern American voice  :) I've gotten accustomed to it and listen daily, along
with my regular reading. After so many years of dead religion, I was literally starved, spiritually, and these teachings
have been the greatest blessing of my life. You are absolutely right that delaying recovery is not God's will.
I am absolutely confident that He will lead you where you'll receive just exactly what you need at this stage, and continue
to draw you closer to Him, Mati. He's just that good!

More hugs,
Hope








 



Ami

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Re: Spiritual abuse
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2007, 10:10:56 PM »
Dear Mati,
   I am going to share what 'hits "me in the heart( and also from my experience in therapy)I could be wrong ----so just reject what I say if it does not resonate with you.
   I think we( that are abused) make several 'mistakes" in these authoritarin relationships-- doctor, shrink, pastor,. I think that we have lost connection to ourselves. We want so, so much for someone to love and care for us. I think there is something in us that is giving away our "power". It is not "right' for the other person to treat us badly, especially if they are God's servants(pastors).However, our lack of self respect sets us up for abuse in people who are oriented that way, anyway.
    I know when my H and I went to therapy( many,many times). My H was stronger and paid the bills. I was weak and wanted to be liked. WHO did the therapist side with? HIM.
  It was not right. It was not in every case.However,it was evil and wrong. However,by my giving my power away, I set the wheels in motion.Not ALL people do it-- but many will The only ones who won't are people who have very strong character and integrity,I am picturing someone like Schindler in Schindlers list.
  I see the underlying problem, for me. is not owning my own power at ALL times.It is so sad that we have to do it..I think that it is the "way of the world".
   As I was writing, I was thinking of a pastor who my H and I went to. He totally sided with me. He told my H to 'get off his stupid complaints". This man was totally  sold out to God. He had "lost his life" and had a new one in God. He did not answer to man.However, this is probably rare.Your guy sounds AWFUL . I think that you should be gone--- YESTERDAY.   I am not saying ANYTHING was your fault here. I think that you should leave --FOR SURE.
   This is more of a general principle of life that we ,as abused people . don't seem to learn. Normal people seem to know how to protect themselves,but we just keep getting used and abused.We want love so much that we don't protect ourselves ,enough. Even with a wonderful person, they could still hurt us b/c man is very flawed.
   I don't know if anything was helpful. I want to really erase this b/c maybe i was being triggering  in some way. If I was hurtful,please  know that this is where I am in my growth, at the moment. I may be wrong. I may have the totally wrong way of looking at it for you. You have been through so much and I don't want to trigger more. Anyway, I guess that I will leave it for the moment   Love Ami
 
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

changing

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Re: Spiritual abuse
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2007, 11:43:22 PM »
Dear Mati-

I agree with all of the replies that you have received. You are not part of some cult or a prisoner in a harem...you are an ever-evolving free soul. God gave you free will, who is this person to try to manipulate you out of a choice that you feel would be beneficial in your journey for healing? If he truly cared for you, this minister would want what was best for you , tell you so, ask that you keep in touch, and tell you to come back whenever you wish. Do what would bring your greatest good...perhaps there are more friends your age and/or situation in another congregation, perhaps you could meet more attractive eligible Christian men, etc. You are single and should do what inspires you Mati. Not all pastors are like this- don't let this one monkey stop the show.

Love,

Changing