Inciting you to destroy yourself

[Iphi]

What is this?  This is the heart of what I don't understand.

This is what my gut tells me that my family is about.  When they savagely attack me and project on me and put me down and shred and push and show so much contempt and disgust -

They are inciting me to harm myself.  They are inciting me to destroy myself.

Because they have not lifted a finger they have that distance and can say any action that happened was all my doing and they have nothing to do with it.  Indeed, they can say they are victims of my craziness and achieve sympathetic attention from others that way.

Their only problem is that I could do a lot more to cooperate.  It gives them fuel that I was depressed, that I have been in therapy, had various friendships that didn't work out, other disappointments.  All of this is evidence of my faultiness.  Also I believe in things that cannot be proven by science.  Like mind, soul, eternity, etc.  That makes me kooky - they are materialists and only believe in what can be measured. 

They are not happy when good things happen for me.  My sister in particular is envious and more, she acts like a great injustice has been allowed to happen.  But then she also confides vulnerable things to me.  I believe she considers me safe - as in a safe person, but also a safe target.  It's toxic.


This is really a separate question.

Why is it that I feel like it is about my undesirable personhood, instead of their bad behavior?  Is it because I have believed them?

They have seen time and again how much damage this causes, but they act like I should not be affected like that.  That it is wrong for me to be damaged by this treatment. That they should be justified in the way they treat me, that it is right.

Hops wrote that under any circumstances, even if I am crazy, they should not belittle me (and I forget exactly her words), but that's not how it feels inside.  It feels like they probably right to do it - like I have let them down by being - unacceptable or not - yes - by showing vulnerability - by which I mean by having a vulnerability.  I feel that I must be impregnable - that they must see my walls as absolutely smooth and unclimbable.  Because if there is a chink - then that is my fault and they will destroy.  Sometimes in the past I have succeeded in a show of external power and confidence.  But I always slipped up and was vulnerable again later. 

Just rambling now.

[Poppyseed]

Iph,

Why is it that I feel like it is about my undesirable personhood, instead of their bad behavior?  Is it because I have believed them?


You and I suffer from the same compulsion.  But somewhere along the line, I have just had to stop myself in my steps and say NO MORE HURTING AND DESTROYING SELF!.  I have studied the reasons why I do it.  Discussed it for endless hours with my T.  For me, it comes down to the fact that it doesn't work!  It doesn't work to make them stop and it doesn't work to help make me less of a target.  It just doesn't work.  And so I move to find the things that do.

Simple thots from a simple brain !

PS.  "Undesireable personhood"...hmmmm where have I heard that before?  Oh yeah!  In my own head!    Not true for either of us.  RIGHT???  xxoo

[JanetLG]

Iphi,

Your post could have been written by me, I resonate with it so much. I think the only difference is that I USED to feel like that about my family, before NC.

Possibly the reason they want you to self-destruct is that they can't channel their feelings back onto themselves, so they give you the impression that they want you to self-destruct, and that they don't care if you do. But actually, they DON'T want you to do that, because if you did, they'd have to find another target. It's all very depressing, because at the heart of it, they have no heart, IMO. They just want *A* target, not necessarily you. Just someone to deflect their feelings onto. Obviously, that's incredibly painful for you to experience, as it seems so deliberate, but that's how N's work. They just want a response.

It always amazed me that my family didn't seem to want me to put on weight when I was an anorexic 70 pounds for 12 years. And they slagged me off when I started putting on weight (even a little bit). They'd wanted me to STAY where they wanted me. What I wanted was irrelevant, even if it had killed me.

It's so hard to undrstand. I'm sorry you're having to deal with all that stuff now.

Janet

[Iphi]

Poppy - no it doesn't work!  It's like the Neville Chamberlain appeasement strategy.  It doesn't work!  

What we need is some fire breathing Winston Churchill strategy:

We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.
Winston Churchill

But why do they want it?? What does it do for them that can't be done some other way or not done at all?

[Poppyseed]

I think they are trying to meet their needs in the most bizzare/twisted ways.  And what they don't see or understand is that they are not getting their needs met either.  It is like any addiction.  It does take the pain away....for a minute....it lies that everything is ok......and we believe it because we want to believe it.......and slowly it takes us down with chains.  I think they lie to themselves in similar ways.  The delude themselves into thinking this is the only way to ensure safety and love and being needed and staying on top.  I am sorry for them.  Because they will never taste the joy of health and the power of real self love and the warmth of real connection to others.  As for you and I, lets go to the buffet and taste it all!! Know what I am sayin'?   We can wave to them from the best seats in the house.  Don't they say that is the best revenge.....living well!  Who knows maybe one of them will see your example and follow!

Love.
pops

[Iphi]

I've read People of the Lie - several years ago.  How crazy is it that I didn't see that my family is this way?  Somehow I was covering for them, excusing them, even as I was reading this book that described the same kind of things that they do.

And I see it now, Janet and auth - I see how it is the same dynamic going on with Janet's FOO and mine and the way authentic is describing that they need me to be down so they can be up.  Whereas even being on this site and reading your stories I didn't see how it is exactly the same.  I didn't see the mechanics - the same engine in each place.  It's like even if I read and nod, somehow I still have to do my own work anyway and type it anyway.  I still have to figure it out individually even despite the rich learning experiences of this site and reading about NPD.  

Thing is - I have never felt safe to just put it out there like this.  I've always been covering for them and trying to negotiate different treatment - when this happens, when that happens, when the moon turns to cheese.  So yeah I'm dealing with it now but nothing is going on right now specifically, except that things are going on inside me.

authentic you wrote

She said:  "It's just that I am not like you.  I don't do" and she waved her arms about  "this."  

My sister does this.  Not in response to any question or anything - she makes sure I know how different she is from me and lays on the disgust.  She only does this when we are alone.  And it doesn't have to be a particularly emotion incident or crisis.  She'll find a way.

I'm really, really heartsick to come to terms with how gone she is.  And yet I don't believe it really - I don't believe she is 100% gone.  But yet... I know she has a lot of rage at me due to the dysfunctional scenes in our family.  Also, because I am safe and my dad is extremely unsafe, I believe she has directed at me everything that is not safe to express toward my dad.

[Iphi]

Another thought -

Janet - when you left them for your own well being and went NC - they treated it like you had attacked them (as was clear from that horrible letter from the NSis you transcribed).  They can't understand that you would do something to protect yourself - that you have a right to do it. They see you protecting yourself as hurting them.  They think you have no right to protect yourself and should allow them to rampage all over you.  They cannot accept that you have any rights.  Any rights of yours are an offense to them.

That's really very unreasonable.  It's unstoppably exploitative.

That's what I was taught too.  That I had no right to protect myself.  That I had to feel empathy for them while they were attacking me, but not feel for myself. To emotionally support my dad even as he was raging at me, because only he mattered.  To have a difference of opinion was an outrage to my dad and actually - it still is.

[JanetLG]

Iphi,

That's exactly right. I didn't have the right to protect myself, as far as they were concerned.

But when I see it written down, as you've just done, it STILL hits me.

What a dreadful way for my own family to have behaved! How bizarre! Even after all this time, it knocks me over, sometimes.

But, I do know that it's so much better to be away from them (even though I still wake in the night, terrified by having had a dream with my Nsister in it - strangely, it's always my Nsister not my NMum).

Janet

[Ami]

_{That's what I was taught too.  That I had no right to protect myself.  That I had to feel empathy for them while they were attacking me, but not feel for myself. To emotionally support my dad even as he was raging at me, because only he mattered.  To have a difference of opinion was an outrage to my dad and actually - it still is.}


Dear Iphi,
  I think that you are breaking the denial.You think,"How could my own family( who should be a safe place) do this to me?You think that you must be exaggerating or not seeing it right. Inside, you still hope   that you are, simply ,not seeing it right.
  Denial breaks slowly so we don't lose our minds.
 We went in to denial so we would not go insane. The human body and mind were not meant to be treated so horribly. We were not meant  to hold all this pain inside us. So, we break somehow.
You are facing the truth
. You are not alone. It was never your fault. It was not b/.c you were not good enough. It was their lies and distortions. They would rather push you "under the water "than face the truth.
  I realize that I was not allowed to protect myself either. It was always about HER(like with your F)
  She had to feel good at all costs. THAT was my goal and mission in life, I had to die and lose myself if need be so SHE could feel good and thrive. That was the RULE.
   The main rule was that she  feels good about herself. Anything that takes away from that must be destroyed . If I make her feel badly about herself( by outshining her) then I have to be destroyed ,also.. So, I needed to be destroyed
  Better yet, I had her in my head and destroyed myself. That is what I am seeing today. I did it all b/c she was in my head.I was talking about all the messages of self destruction that are in my head on the "Shocked "thread. I think that I am out of denial  about her- -BUT I  feel like I am a broken person.Now, I need to come out of denial about all these old tapes and messages that she programmed in to me. Iphi-- you are coming out of denial..You have a lot of love and support here.Keep writing-- especially when you don't want to.
                                               Love Ami

[sun blue]

Reading the posts in this thread lead me to express my personal belief that there seem to be (at least) two broad categories of NPD abusers---the in-your-face, aggressive type and the less obvious, but equally insidious and manipulative sort.  It's easy to see if someone is abusing you if they hit your or swear at you or tell you outright that you are a lower.  But I think many NPDs work in much more subtle but manipulative ways.

In my case, for example, my NPD mom would never say directly to me, "your hairstyle is horrible."  Instead, she will make a point of telling me that every woman she sees in long hair (I have long hair) looks absolutely terrible and has an ugly haircut.  She'll also "suggest" over and over that she could talk to her hair stylist about "fitting me in" for an appointment to get my hair cut.

But I know other NPDs are far more aggressive and obviously abusive.  In either case, the end result is that the recipient of that abuse is harmed and is left with total feelings of unworthiness and failure.  However, even in the case of the obviously aggressive type of NPD, I think they rarely let this behavior be seen in front of strangers or others, so it is really difficult to get anyone to validate what you know about them or to acknowledge there is something wrong with me.  This is just more invalidation heaped on more invalidation.  As long as you do what they want, always agree with them and provide them with endless narcissistic supply, they can appear to be very nice, pleasant, etc.  Everyone else would think they are great people. 

That is why I think validation is so very important---from a therapist, other family members, or even posters on this board.  Somebody is finally noticing that something is not right and that we are not being treated fairly.

I just wish the mental health community would catch up and take NPD seriously.  If they did, I bet they would find that a lot of the typical depression, anxiety, and PTSD they see in their patients can really be attributed to growing up in an NPD household.

Just my humble opinion.

[sally]

That's what I was taught too.  That I had no right to protect myself.  That I had to feel empathy for them while they were attacking me, but not feel for myself. To emotionally support my dad even as he was raging at me, because only he mattered.  To have a difference of opinion was an outrage to my dad and actually - it still is.

Iphi, Authentic, Poppy & Janet,

Yes, yes, yes.  I am in the same boat.  this realization makes me sick, I really physically feel ill about it. 

For me, reading the Fawn Response (post by Certain Hope, bless her) has answered so many questions for me.  I am both grateful and happy to know, to see the truth, but, seeing the truth also has made me feel sick and depressed.  It is such a painful revelation.

We can't change the past, we can't change the damage done to us in the past, but we can, now that we are enlightened, act differently with those who scapegoat us, undermine us and, as Iphi said, incite us to destroy ourselves.

Yucch.

Love, peace and strength to us all,

sally

[sally]

Hey Ami & Sun,

You two must have posted when I posted.

Yes, Ami, I am feeling the shock which you write about in your Shock post.  I think I have been in this Shock ever since I learned about NPD and that I was victimized by it.

Sun, me too with the hair!  Except my mother would do both:  She would hint and imply that my hair looks bad and then tell me to my face in a nasty, yelling  tone "YOUR HAIR LOOKS TERRIBLE", while gesturing with her arms.

Ack.  So many bad memories and so much damage done.

Love,
sally

[Ami]

I have the hair thing,too. My mother would always say that I should have a "smart short "haircut. I liked long hair. She would smirk at it  like i was trying to be too "feminine( said in a mocking tone with a smirk)
                                                                                                                            Ami
 P.S. I think that the dizziness, Sally, is a sign of coming out of denial. I had it for 6 weeks(off and on)

[sun blue]

Glad to see I'm not the only one with the "short, smart" haircut thing.  I always liked long hair, probably because all during my childhood my mother would refuse to allow me to have long hair.  She insisted I keep a "pixie" cut all my childhood.  It made me feel like a boy, "invisible" as a girl.  I was teased about it and by the age of 12, I was molested by 3 boys who laughed at me.  I would have to say much of my NPD mom's abuse would fall in the "neglect" category.  Growing up, she never discussed the things most moms would discuss at some point:  sex, boys, relationships, the facts of life, or the changes that occur during adolescence.  In fact, I remember on the day I first got my period, I had bad cramps which would follow me throughout life.  My mom, of course, had never discussed this "change" with me so I didn't know what it was it first.  When she realized I had my period, her only comment was "Be very careful not to stain the couch."

So many memories of neglect, distinterest, disrespect.  From a very early age, you're made to understand that nothing you want, feel, believe or need ever matters.  No wonder I've never experienced love in my life. 

[Ami]

Dear Sun.
 I had the neglectful type of mother ,too. I had to "laugh" at the period thing. When I got my period(age 9),my M had a horrified look on her face. She looked so bad that I said that I really did not have my period,I just cut my leg. Finally, when I couldn't deny it anymore,she told me that only "peasants " have their period so young.
  Sun,you will find that you have entered a sorority  of soul sisters with so many,similar stories. This was one of the most wonderful parts of being on the board-- not being alone with these crazy experiences                                             Love  Ami"