Inciting you to destroy yourself

[Ami]

I just wanted to add to Tayana's and the other posts.I think that AFTER we see and face the truth--then we face the task of loving ourselves.
  I am looking very candidly at myself. I have become a shell of what I could be and even used to be.
  My greatest desire and goal is to have good mental health. I have traversed  the first step,in many ways--- fearless honesty. Now, I see the second step emerging over the horizon-- liking myself,loving myself ,valuing myself, being kind to myself, nurturing myself, being gentle with myself.
  It has been so long that I have treated myself well.
   I need a whole new tool box. I need to throw away all the tools that I needed to survive with my M. I carried them all with me when I moved away from her. She might as well have been with me. I treated myself the same way that she treated  me.
  I see the reason that I thought that I was a bad person. I saw what I should not have seen.( the truth) I perceived what I should not have perceived . I saw the Emperor and saw that he was naked. I had to punish myself for that.I had to twist ,turn and distort UNTIL the emperor had clothes on. In fact the emperor(my M) was dressed the best of them all. Now, I could fit in. However, what I gave up was my ability to perceive life with my own eyes                              Ami

[tayana]

Authentic, Ami . . .

I am trying really hard.  I work on it a little everyday, and everyday I have to forgive myself when my living room is a mess and shut off that voice that's berating me because I went to bed to do something creative.  It's not as easy as it sounds.  It's the hardest thing I've ever done.

Tayana
THAT WAS BRILLIANT------WOW
I am so happy and inspired to hear you talking about loving and respecting yourself. That is "where it's at".You are right. They de-nuded us of ourselves like you would de-nude a forest of trees. They left us barren-- self less.
  You are getting your self back. You sound SO good. I am so happy--truly,truly happy to hear your strength.   

I feel pretty good, although having to have anything to do with my parents turns me inside out.  I can hardly stand that in fact.  It's little steps.  I can't worry about the big pictures, I have to work at it day by day.


 

I see the reason that I thought that I was a bad person. I saw what I should not have seen.( the truth) I perceived what I should not have perceived . I saw the Emperor and saw that he was naked. I had to punish myself for that.I had to twist ,turn and distort UNTIL the emperor had clothes on. In fact the emperor(my M) was dressed the best of them all. Now, I could fit in. However, what I gave up was my ability to perceive life with my own eyes           

We punish ourselves too much.  We allow other people to see our lives for us, and we let our selves get lost in that.  I'm glad to hear that you are working on this Ami, that's what you need, to be able to perceive life on your terms and choose what is best for you.  We shouldn't have to be responsible for our N's. 

I have punished myself so much, and I'm tired of being miserable.  I'd like to see what being happy is for a chance, although I'd probably feel happier if I hadn't caught a cold.

[Ami]

I am in another state of shock .there are many things that surprise me about life. I see the basic premise of this thread-- that our N's would destroy whatever would expose the lies. We as little kids, could see the lies. We had to be twisted and distorted until we could not see the lies anymore.
  Now, I am on to the next step--- ALL the lies that are within me-- driving my life.Ii "work" so hard to face the truth b/c I know that under all these lies is a "neat" person.
 It does not matter where I go, what I look like, what education I have, what clothes,hair,make-up I have-- as long as I am lying to myself about myself--I will be miserable.
  Now, comes the time to break down the denial inside me.
  The most important thing that I have is my relationship with God. I got this b/c my M drove me to pure,unadulterated desperation.I could die now and be with Him. I have found the most important thing in life(IMO). So, I was"birthed" in to this relationship by PAIN.
  Now I am a 'new born". I have to relearn most everything.  90% of my thinking is N tinged. I had to lose myself to survive. I have to build up myself like a baby would learn life's lessons.
                Ami
 

[Hopalong]

Wow. Tayana I'm glad you got to assertiveness training.

I made it to Vespers last night and we did a guided group meditation (some reading then long shared silence). The words were:

May I know that I am good.
May I know that I am loved.
May I know that I am held in a larger hope.

I started off with a kind of "yeah-yeah" in my mind because my back hurt and I'm a little cranky now that the season is changing. Kept obediently saying it to myself though, and after a while a few repetitions sounded real, heartfelt. It was comforting.

Tay, your saying "I am good" into the mirror every morning is a straightforward way of entering the same info into the brain. I like it. I think I need about 6 versions, varied throughout the day.

Such brave work. Everybody.

Hops

[Certain Hope]

It seems to me that coming out of denial means that I have to give up my dad, give up on my dad, in every way.  It seems to me I have been trying to get him for years to stop making me choose between him or me (that is making me choose him even to tolerate mistreatment).  Having my dad in my life means going against myself and I did not create that situation.

It was a choice I was not able to make in the past, but sheesh - I'm 37.  I'm a parent.  I guess I have to choose me.

Yeah my stomach hurts. 

Dear Iphi,

I feel free to stop taking the initiative with my parents. Of course, I haven't taken much initiative in the past few years, with such physical distance between us, but there have been a few occasions when I have actually instigated some contact or other. For me, coming out of denial just means that I no longer have to do that - and when I don't do that, I no longer have to feel bad/guilty/ashamed about it.

If that is "giving up" on them, then I think it's a positive sort of giving up...? Feels like it, anyway.

Still winging it here... still haven't opened their last envelope because I'm in self-nurturing mode and really don't want that to shift gears into self-pitying mode at this moment. I need to remain in neutral for at least a few more days and get one full week of non-smoking under my foot.
It's a small thing, but it's my boundary, set by me, for my own good.
Do you think that these small things are sufficient? Instead of making it one huge fortress... just appropriate little fences, one at a time, as needed?
I hope so... and I hope you're feeling better.

With love,
Carolyn

[Iphi]

Thanks for asking CH/Carolyn.  I feel okay.  It's so clear to me that I held on because I believed I need him as my parent, and he never did that role except for certain self-serving parts he liked such as demanding chores and lecturing on topics of his choice.  He claimed credit for it being a great parent, but... no.

So basically at this point well into adulthood, it's only an artifact of the past that I have to give up.  Since the big blowout we had 2 years ago, I barely call him and stopped trying - just stopped trying.

The thing that bothers me is the parts of my own life as an adult that are not working.  That's the larger context.  It's the anxiety, the lack of confidence, this consistent belief that I will be rejected if I try things, that I can't do what I want to do because it will fail. This fear of going for it.  But on the other side - a big desire to go for it.  I live with a lot of internal tension that way. 

Like I have said elsewhere, if it wasn't for the current life issues - that have also been with me for over a decade - then I would probably let sleeping dogs lie.  The frustration drives me to it.  It was when I quit smoking that I started to ask what the smoking was about - self calming, numbing out distressful emotions and anxiety, having a visible flaw to divert attackers from other more hurtfully personal flaws.  I realized the smoking covered my anxieties - and that I would have to address the anxieties directly.  The smoking would no longer be an excuse not to socialize or pursue goals.  I had to get to the fear. 

And that is what led me to NPD and this board and discovering my PTSD this topic about the roots of my PTSD.  So it's okay. It's good.  I think understanding will really help  me make progress on recognizing the introject, the negative scripts, and when I am doing depressive thinking.  I'm really not at all who I thought I was and that is a good thing.


CH, when I quit I was soooo happy to be getting the cold shoulder from my dad and knowing for the first time in my life that I was overjoyed to ignore him right back (instead of anxiously trying to make 'amends' for my 'crimes').  Personally I would not endanger my quit by opening any upsetting envelopes!  I only spoke to him twice the first year I quit.  I would have been happy to go on that way but eventually I felt it necessary to tell him I was pregnant.   


tayana - I have read some of your topics in the past when I was not yet posting on the board and I have to tell you - you are so brave and you have had a lot to overcome in your mother - wow she is such a negative force.  I am so happy for you and your son that you broke out of her gravitational pull and are in your own place, despite all her fearmongering and manipulation and scheming stuff.  Thank you for sharing your hard won wisdom here - your posts are awesome!  Your resolve inspires me!

Take care everybody.

[Hopalong]

I can understand why it hurt, Authentic.
I am sorry it was painful to hear.

Hops

[Hopalong]

I was angry, Authentic.

I was wrenched by your story and have compassion for you.

Hops

[Hopalong]

I feel a confusion sometimes between saying "I'm sorry" and "taking it back."
KWIM?

I do not want to retract what I had posted. I did mean it.
I also recognize that it would be painful to read if it were about me.

I am sorry that my words caused you pain.
But I was speaking the truth. I was describing what it felt like to me.

Aha. That would be..."my truth." Not "the" truth. Hmm.

That's where my error was. My feeling it personally meant that
I couldn't be effective at raising awareness or furthering peace.

Hops

[Hopalong]

I'm not willing to continue this dialogue, Authentic.
I can't see it as you do, can't follow your analysis.

I need to withdraw from this one.

Peace to you,
Hops

[lighter]

Ummmm....

Did Iphi's thread just get jacked[/i

[Ami]

i guess that the board is like life. When I read Hops calling authentic 'malignant",loose canon etc, it hit me at the time as "off". Izzy has said very mean things to me,but no one called her any of these names. I don't care .It means nothing to me what she calls me .
  The issue is that there are certain"dresses' that certain girls wear that make them part of the acceptable "group'. The girl that wears a different dress( voice) is free game to pig pile on. WHY? I think that it is human nature to scapegoat.
  In Social Psychology, there is often an us vs. them mentality. The 'them' has to be marginalized as "different", .Then, the "us "can vent on them. The "us" can do exactly the SAME thing(Izzy or Lighter  to me) and no one does anything.
  Lighter has treated me shamefully-- did any of the 'us" group respond? No, Lighter wears the acceptable 'dress". She does not talk too loud, dress too wild or act too big.If she does any of these things, she does them within 'acceptable limits " Authentic has a strong, "big" true voice. She touches the truth a little too close. Her voice is a little  too "close to the pain".Her voice has a different "accent" than what the group consensus allows
   If you don't like her voice--just ignore her.
  We have all been abused by N's. Now we come to a generous site by Dr.G and abuse someone who is a little '"strong" in how they present themselves . .
  Izzy and Lighter have been very rude to me. I don't care. It has no effect on me. . The point is that they wear the "appropriate dress" to school. Authentic might dress in hot pink. They dress in "acceptable navy blue"
  Think about what I am saying without responding  with a 'group think". This is social psychology here. This is a version of the Milgrim experiment --in that--- How many people will stand ALONE and for the truth.. 6 out of 10 in the Milgrim experiment SHOCKED the man to death. Why? they could not stand alone.
 Authentic had a life that FEW here had. She was molested as a very young girl.Then, everyone lied to her and made her 'bad" b/c she was molested.  Would anyone here want to trade with what she had to deal with?She has been betrayed by her whole family for telling the truth. Shouldn't she have a safe place here? Who wants to throw the first stone at her?
  She has a strong voice b/c she is trying to face the truth about her life and heal. Leave her alone if you don't like her.
  Very bad dynamics of Social Psychology are playing here. Just think about it
                      Love  Ami

Hops---- This is Kitty Genovese

[Certain Hope]

Thanks for asking CH/Carolyn.  I feel okay.  It's so clear to me that I held on because I believed I need him as my parent, and he never did that role except for certain self-serving parts he liked such as demanding chores and lecturing on topics of his choice.  He claimed credit for it being a great parent, but... no.

So basically at this point well into adulthood, it's only an artifact of the past that I have to give up.  Since the big blowout we had 2 years ago, I barely call him and stopped trying - just stopped trying.

The thing that bothers me is the parts of my own life as an adult that are not working.  That's the larger context.  It's the anxiety, the lack of confidence, this consistent belief that I will be rejected if I try things, that I can't do what I want to do because it will fail. This fear of going for it.  But on the other side - a big desire to go for it.  I live with a lot of internal tension that way. 

Like I have said elsewhere, if it wasn't for the current life issues - that have also been with me for over a decade - then I would probably let sleeping dogs lie.  The frustration drives me to it.  It was when I quit smoking that I started to ask what the smoking was about - self calming, numbing out distressful emotions and anxiety, having a visible flaw to divert attackers from other more hurtfully personal flaws.  I realized the smoking covered my anxieties - and that I would have to address the anxieties directly.  The smoking would no longer be an excuse not to socialize or pursue goals.  I had to get to the fear. 

And that is what led me to NPD and this board and discovering my PTSD this topic about the roots of my PTSD.  So it's okay. It's good.  I think understanding will really help  me make progress on recognizing the introject, the negative scripts, and when I am doing depressive thinking.  I'm really not at all who I thought I was and that is a good thing.


CH, when I quit I was soooo happy to be getting the cold shoulder from my dad and knowing for the first time in my life that I was overjoyed to ignore him right back (instead of anxiously trying to make 'amends' for my 'crimes').  Personally I would not endanger my quit by opening any upsetting envelopes!  I only spoke to him twice the first year I quit.  I would have been happy to go on that way but eventually I felt it necessary to tell him I was pregnant.   


tayana - I have read some of your topics in the past when I was not yet posting on the board and I have to tell you - you are so brave and you have had a lot to overcome in your mother - wow she is such a negative force.  I am so happy for you and your son that you broke out of her gravitational pull and are in your own place, despite all her fearmongering and manipulation and scheming stuff.  Thank you for sharing your hard won wisdom here - your posts are awesome!  Your resolve inspires me!

Take care everybody.

Hi Iphi. I'm glad you're feeling okay. Me, too... for the most part.
Reading you helps me to clarify what's going on in my own head, you know?
Thank you for that.
I guess it was the same for me... believing that I need my parents to be... the strong ones. Actually, I think I needed to believe that they are "good people"... maybe even super-human people... above average?  Well into their advanced years, they've had an energy for the foo-foo-phony-stuff that I could never match. Of course, that sort of stuff is their sustenance, so they draw energy from it... and it's all just the opposite of what I ever thought it was. It's absolutely empty.. devoid of substance.. just like the empty shell they left of me when I stopped reflecting them to their satisfaction.

It really is an artifact of the past. Thank you for that, too, Iphi.

The battle really is internal, isn't it? Fighting with and for our own minds... sometimes I think that's a dual meaning for those principalities and powers in "high places"... the high place of the thoughts, where an entire war can be fought without a move being made. In the past, I sidestepped alot of those battles via impulsivity. Now, much more actively engaged in deliberate decision making. That helps.

The fear of failure is a biggie, but I am really coming to see how it's based on this lie that we only get one chance... or that one failure will negate an entire history of successes... whew - so many things are not at all about pass vs. fail. Gotta shake off that mindset.

(((((((((Iphi))))))))) In my opinion, you are well on the road to surmounting the heap of old stuff and exiting the boneyard in fine form. Thanks for all you've shared here... I always come away from your posts feeling more grounded and settled... and calm.

With love,
Carolyn

[lighter]

i guess that the board is like life. When I read Hops calling authentic 'malignant",loose canon etc, it hit me at the time as "off". Izzy has said very mean things to me,but no one called her any of these names. I don't care .It means nothing to me what she calls me .
 

If you didn't care you wouldn't be posting about it on Iphi's thread

I haven't seen Izzy refer to you, much less post in your direction lately.... and the last posts I read were very kind.

Maybe I missed something?

If you insist on living in the past.... then live there but I'm a bit bizzy so I won't be doing it with you. 

There are posters here who are very comfortable posting with you.... I'm glad.

I don't want you to feel unsupported.

I also don't want you to remain mired.... which is why I stopped posting with you after I said everything I needed you to hear. 

Posting to you, in the manner you require, would make me feel like I'm helping you remain mired. 

I don't like how that feels and I enjoy posting with those, like changing and tayana, who are healing in a manner I can identify with and support. 

I don't even want to debate the 'deep healing' vs. 'shallow healing' issue. 

I would be very unhappy to see you lable anyone's healing experiences inadequate or beneath what you consider to be true healing. 

I got news for ya.... it's two steps forward and one step back... and so it goes.

It won't ever be perfect.

If your holding out for that final revelation.....



that final shock that really allows you to BE you again....


::whispering::

it's not coming.

Healing comes in waves and rolls you about.... skinning you up and holding you under...... and when you least expect it.... you pop up and find you can breath again.   

Then the waves start again. 

Intellectualizing the waves to death is intellectualizing... not healing, IMO. 

We learn and we grow and we do.... well..... by DOING.

And since Iphi's thread is throughouly jacked now... and you've started this wonderful forum of critiquing others.....
 
It's also very frustrating that you don't take your own advice.

You have plenty and you give it often and it's very good. 

My interpretation, of course, but I'm entitled to that.... at least as I see it.

Izzy and Hops and everyone else on this board, including you, is entitled as well?

You could make excuses for everyone here for any and every post they make. 

Why excuse one....

                 and not another? 

I've also set a boundary, don't attribute meaning to my posts, I did not intend.   

Please ask for clarification if you need to, that's fine.

                   I believe that's a fair request and I've spoken my truth.


Everyone here has a right to set and enforce boundaries, speak their truth and feel supported. 

Even those who can't support your particular journey.


::sigh::


Sorry Iphi.

::handing thread back::

[lighter]

(((((((((Iphi))))))))) In my opinion, you are well on the road to surmounting the heap of old stuff and exiting the boneyard in fine form. Thanks for all you've shared here... I always come away from your posts feeling more grounded and settled... and calm.

With love,
Carolyn


[/quote]



I've said it before and I'll keep saying it....

 bc I think it's one part of the healing equation....

giving up hope, that our loved ones (whoever let us down or abused us) will ever be nice, or loving or kind or protective or not eat us for lunch is very important, IMO. 

I know I haven't provided any context here but I'm having a little trouble concentrating