Author Topic: Idiot Compassion  (Read 9173 times)

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2007, 06:46:12 PM »
Hi cats paw

Finding Peace,

  This is a great post.  I wrestle with that one when it comes to my family.  I need to think about what might be some concrete personal examples- I think I might have one when I've got a bit more time to write.

cats paw

Thanks!  I enjoy your posts very much and look forward to hearing from you!

Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2007, 06:59:53 PM »
Hi Jill,

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I read Pema's thing on Idiot Compassion just a couple of weeks ago. 
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This happens to me so frequently here - something I see or am thinking about and then I see a post!

I haven't thought of this at the level of daily interactions so much.  But thank you for mentioning this as it got me to thinking about how this would also seem to be a great reframe on setting more simple boundaries (more simple than NC) in everyday life. 

Hadn't thought about when I am showing idiot compassion to myself.  Would love to hear more on this. 

I haven't heard Pema's audio-book - did you like it?  I also visited the link you posted - looks like some really good information there.  I really like the concept of self regulation as opposed to trying to regulate self through others, if that makes any sense (sorry have a migraine at the moment - but want to post back to everyone before I get too far behind again!!)

You have a beautiful, loving day as well! ((((Thanks))))
- Life is a journey not a destination

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2007, 07:54:04 PM »
Dear Carolyn,

Yes, it helps.

Thank you so much for that link.  I loved the clear distinction between difficult situations and difficult people – some very, very good advice there (I am printing out your rules).  (Just have to add that I cringe a little at calling people difficult as I was told, repeatedly, that I was difficult as a child and this really hurt.  As an adult, I have come to realize that it is true.  I was difficult, I was difficult in their eyes because I challenged their beliefs at a fundamental level :smile:  With reasonable parents, this most likely would have been handled as a difficult situation. (very eye-opening that) 

In addition to the rules you posted, the following from Dr. Wilson’s article really resonated with me:  (from:  http://www.freshministry.org/articles/difficult.html)

“The best way I can deal with a difficult situation is to not get defensive, but to listen. Listening is more than a pause from speaking.  It is not an opportunity to "reload my mind so I can shoot off at my mouth." It is a chance to understand the message the speaker is conveying.  I need to listen with Empathy.

Difficult situations can be resolved, difficult people can never be satisfied.”

I never had this as a child, so it was foreign to me in a lot of ways.  When I had children, I really learned to listen, listen to them and try to stretch to understand where they were coming from.  It has made all the difference in our relationship I think - and is really great advice.  The most important piece for me I think is to learn to differentitate difficult behaviors that are showing a difficult situation vs. a difficult person.  The only way I have found to do that so far is to watch for patterns in behavior over time.

You also said,
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More and more, I'm seeing the crucial need to value self and be compassionate toward self, before I have anything of genuine and eternal value to offer others. Without that self-concern, any concern I give to others will be false and shallow... because it's not from the heart, but rather from an attempt to prove myself good and loving.
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Do you think so?  Have you already attained this then?  Maybe I am misunderstanding, but from my perspective, your willingness to share your struggles in finding your path and searching for your truth and the support, advice, and wisdom you have given me has helped me immeasurably.  I don’t see this as false or shallow at all.  I am sorry to disagree (jumping out of idiot compassion here :wink: ), but I believe you do have genuine and eternal value to offer to others already.

Much love to you,
Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2007, 08:51:14 PM »
Dear Hannah,

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This sounds very familiar. What you say resonates with my experience as well.  I feel like I am stuck in Idiot Compassion; in part, I learned it from my mother and how she coped and in part, I just feel like I don't know how else to be and be loved.  My hubbie will love the article you posted because he's been trying to tell me about Idiot Compassion in a not-so-eloquent way and it just sounded mean.  In reading the article, though, it sounds very centered.  I just don't want to lose my family, I love them so much.  But you know what, we do have to care for ourselves and to value ourselves.
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Thank you for responding in the midst of your own struggle.  I too learned idiot compassion as a child – it was the only way to live with my father quasi peacefully.  The slightest disagreement with him was like poking a rabid bull in the eye with a red hot poker.

I read your posts but haven't had a chance to respond there.  I hope it is ok if I respond here. 

I understand not wanting to lose your family.  I was that way as well.  This may sound like a strange question, but I am going to ask anyway (this is not meant to offend at all, just something I learned that I thought of when I read your posts):

Do you love your family for who they really are, or do you love what you hope they can be?  This is a really tough question, and may not resonate with you.  I can only speak from my experience.  Last year I realized that I was holding onto a dream of the family I wished and hoped for, not for the family I really had.  And while I was desperately clinging to that dream, I was being torn to pieces emotionally.  It was a real struggle to let go of that dream - I went through shock, denial, rage, pain, and grief. 

It seems to me that there is a lot of talk at you in your family, but not with you.  I tried to think of what I would say if my daughter came to me and told me she was marrying someone I didn’t like.  First of all, her age would be a factor in how I responded.  But, there comes a point where children need to make their own choices. 

I simply would have said, honey, I obviously don’t know xx as well as you.  From the interactions we have had, here are my concerns, and here is why.  Can you help me understand this from your perspective?  And I would listen and then let go of the outcome because she will do what she needs to do for her, and I respect that she has a good head on her shoulders and if ever there was a need, she could come to me. 

I wasn’t raised in a family like this, but this seems reasonable to me.  I don’t see your family treating you that way – would it have made a difference if you had been approached that way instead of all the manipulations, mind games, and threats?

In any case, not sure any of this will resonate - just some thoughts that came up when I read your posts.

Please know that I am thinking about you, and my heart goes out to you in this situation.  And thanks again for thinking of me in the midst of your own struggle!

(((((Sending you strength and hugs)))))

Much love to you,
Peace
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 09:01:18 PM by finding peace »
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Ami

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2007, 08:51:33 PM »
Dear Peace,
  I have been thinking about your thread for a while.I think that "idiot compassion" is when you are forced to jettison yourself in favor of taking care of another..
  I think that our Mother's( and Fathers) did that to us. We HAD to build them up at our expense. We had to push unacceptable reactions and speech under the rug SO they could feel good. We had to worry about how THEY would feel as we were dying inside.
  I don't know if I made up a new definition of idiot compassion,but that it how I see it.
  It could define my life. "I am a compassionate idiot                                                                                       The other side to it is how very,very hard it is to give compassion to ourselves.
   Maybe this is the flip side of the coin to compassionate idiot. The flip side is that I am worthless and don't deserve compassion. For me, it IS the flip side.
  Right now, Peace, I am at this very crossroads. I see that I MUST give compassion to myself. However, I was brainwashed to take care of everyone else and give me the dregs.
  I feel very stuck . The inner child books are the only thing tht has ever helped me move from this stuck place.
  Inside me, there is the 11th commandment------ Do not nurture and take care of yourself. it is WRONG-WRONG--WRONG.
  I really want to go in my head and tear out the software. Were it so easy?
  Peace-- I think that the inner child within us knows all the answers to how we should live our lives. If you ask your inner child about NC ,I bet that you will get a wealth of information.
  One thing that I CAN say about NC,is that it really helps you to see just how bad they are.It gives you enough distance that it is a shock to hear their evil voice and see their evil machinations.
Distance will give you a perspective that contact does not(IME)
So glad to see that you are posting again     .Much Love to you     Ami


 
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2007, 09:41:09 AM »
IIIIZZZYYYY!!!!

I am sorry -  I was trying to catch up last night with a migraine and got out of sequence!!!

You said:

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I am interested in this phrase (it's an eye-catcher) and in retrospect, regarding my FOO, I did the compassionate thing by moving so far away.

In earlier years I was always "running from sister to sister' looking for approval, or closeness, or love, and I ended up feeling like a pest.

I just felt not needed and a 2000 mile move has solved the problem. No one has to feel obligated to look after me, visit me, etc. and the reverse is true.

I feel as though I have let us all off the hook.

When Sis, Ruth was here Aug weekend, one of the talks brought up another sister's name. I asked and she said, "I keep my sisters separate". I had previously wondered to her in an email if "words were spread a round and she had then said, "separate sisters"

Now my eldest sister just sent me an email, "sorry about your leg". Well only Ruth could have told her, as only Ruth knew. It's not the topic but this appears to contradict "separate sisters" and opens me up to a hulabaloo email from this other sister.

.......or DOES the topic allow her to change her beliefs?
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First I wanted to say I have been thinking of you and sending prayers that those bones knit as quick as they can!  I am so sorry you have so much on your plate right now – but as is typical for you seem to be handling it with the utmost grace and strength!

Yeah – the term idiot compassion caught my eye too.  Didn’t like it at first – but it makes a lot of sense.

You said that you feel that moving away has let you all off the hook.  Are you OK with that?  It may have left them off the hook – but has there been a price to you?  Frankly, for me, the thought of moving 2000 miles away would be a blessed relief - isn't feasible at this time tho.

Regarding the e-mail, could your brother have told your other sister?  Not sure but if Ruth did – maybe she felt the sister should know as it involved an injury.   I dunno, I probably would have told because it did involve a serious injury, BUT I would have asked you first.   

Is this a sister you want to converse with – or is this the one you consider an N?

Much love to you,
Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

Certain Hope

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2007, 10:25:51 AM »
(((((((Peace))))))))  thank you so much.

When I've felt like my communication would only be shallow or false, I generally haven't been able to say anything at all.
The trouble is, I've not felt much compassion for those whom I've considered dangerous... (and for awhile, these were legion,  because I was so shell-shocked)... and so I don't feel that I've been too successful at loving "the unloveable".
But again, these are feelings... awarenesses of my own limits... and maybe compassion is not so much a feeling (any more than forgiveness is, imo)... but rather a deliberate decision of will.

Anyhow, I am thinking that a proper self-value (which is absolutely honest about both weaknesses and strengths) and compassion-for-self, when based on right principles (on Christ), would allow me to share equally with both the unloveable and with the loveable.
Sounds good in theory : )  Now to walk it out!
You, for instance, dear Peace - are absolutely loveable - so it's easy. Dealing with folks who've shown a well-seasoned pattern of difficulty... well that is another matter entirely. So... I have much work to do... and I'm just thankful for folks like you, who are a virtual oasis in the midst of a very wide and dusty desert.

With much love,
Carolyn

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2007, 11:29:19 AM »
Thanks Hops.

Carolyn thanks for asking Lighter to clarify.  I was getting a little worried about Lighter sittin out there on her evil perch with horns on her head.

Lighter – always glad to expand the vocabulary.

You said:

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But I find that the majority of folks don't want honesty from me!
They mostly seem to want to be validated, no matter if I agree with them or not.
They want to be agreed with, even if I do not agree. 
I used to do that, it was easier and I was comfortable doing that.  ::shrug::
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I couldn’t agree more.  This is where it is so hard to break away from idiot compassion.  What I am trying to do is to give honesty, but to give it in a way that the other person can hear it.  Tricky part is figuring that out.  It also depends on who the person is, where they are coming from, and the amount I am invested.  May sound selfish, but I am not going to risk world war III with a stranger who can’t handle the truth if that makes any sense.  And there will be cases, like Ns, where it does not matter if you are honest or lie through your teeth; they can’t hear you (I get this picture in my mind of a little kid with their hands over their ears saying naaa-na-na-naaaa-na).  When I run into these – if I dispense with idiot compassion, I do it very, very carefully (learned this from the old wormtail [my F]) and then let things fall where they may.

Lighter (jumping out of idiot compassion here for a moment, because I suspect you can handle the truth), I do not see any evil intentions or motives from any of your posts - this is what I do see :::disclaimer this is my opinion::::.  You are an incredibly strong, with it, intelligent person.  You are a great mother.  You keep your troubles close to your heart, but are always willing to help someone else out.  You have really, really good advice.  If you are hurt, you usually deflect with humor, but will lash back on rare occasions.  If this happens you let it go quickly.  (I could learn some of that - have a hard time letting go.)  You have a wonderful sense of humor (a very dry, dry, wit) and have lightened many of my days.  If you see something that doesn’t sit right with you, you will nudge the issue, but you will do it with humor.  I also think that your way of dealing with pain is humor.  Sometimes I think of the Greek drama mask.  Here, when you see something you don’t like, you will question it.  I think on the few occasions where a disconnect may have happened, it is because some people have a difficult time with humor or, they misinterpreted it. Does that make you an evil meanie – no; does that make the other person an evil meanie – no.  It is simply a misunderstanding.  In any case, that is what I have gleaned from your posts - may be off on the wrong foot here, but with all that being said (or long post made short - ha), I am very glad you are here.

You can dispense with the idiot compassion with me – k? I value your opinion – just be prepared to get true compassion back – k? :wink:

I am busy here carving my own evil perch.  As soon as it is done, how about you all come over, I’ll put a pot of witch’s brew on, complete with eye of newt and toad lips, and we’ll have us a party.  Lighter – can you bring the teapot?  The neti pot should do – promise I won’t make you drink from your nose like the evil Hops (just kidding Hops – you are the farthest thing from evil in my mind).

::::whispering – can I have an amazon outfit, please, please – can it have the wonder woman arm bands to dodge those bullets (or tomatoes if needed) and definitely the truth rope – that would really come in handy:::::

Love you guys!
Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2007, 12:19:53 PM »
Dear Ami,

I have been thinking of you a lot recently.  Sorry this is a long one but you really sparked the migraine brain:

Can idiot compassion be extrapolated to children who subvert their own needs to accommodate a parent?  I think yes and no.  Yes in the sense that I think this meets the definition of idiot compassion.  No in the sense that I think children are forced into this role – it is not a conscious choice for a child, it is what a child needs to do to survive.

I said this in another thread, but I think it only natural that a child put the negatives on themselves rather than realize that their parents are the true monsters in the closet.  What adult wants to realize their parent is a monster (look at how much we struggle with this) – a child does not have the wherewithal to deal with this at any level.  They need to survive and the only way to do it is to place the blame on themselves rather than where it truly belongs.

Dr. G posted a thread not too long ago about a radio show.  (Thank you Dr. G this was pivotal for me.)  In the radio show they talked the Harlow experiments.  You probably know these very well given your studies.

What really jumped out at me was the part where the cloth mother monkeys were created to forcibly throw the baby monkey away every time the baby monkey touched it.  In the interview, they described how the baby monkeys would do everything they could to get the cloth monkey to accept it – and kept going back no matter how many times the mother threw them away. 

When I heard this, it dawned on me that perhaps that desire for maternal love, compassion, and nurturing is innate.  Maybe we are hardwired to seek acceptance from our parents no matter who they are or how they act – they can forcibly throw us away with words or actions numerous times, and yet we will always go back. It would explain why it is so hard to break away.

I always struggled with the thought that if someone outside of my FOO treated me the way my FOO did, I would have walked away without a backwards glance – why is it so hard when it comes to FOO – it just didn’t make sense.

In so many posts, time and again, I see you criticizing yourself and being so hard on yourself in so many, many ways.  IMO, you did not willing throw your core away or sacrifice yourself in the face of your mother’s pathology – you did what was biologically innate in all of us.  You offered it to her again, again, and again – only to have it thrown back at you.  When you were 14, this was a pivotal time, you were looking for affirmation from your father, and he failed you – it seems to me at this point, when your correct view on reality was refuted, you reverted to innate nature – you sacrificed yourself to get whatever scrap you could from your mother and from your father the one who you really trusted at that age.  Is it wrong or shameful to have done so – absolutely not! 

I dunno, a lot of thoughts coming together for me here :smile:  (hope you can find something for you here).  I think of myself as the baby monkey, desperately twisting myself time and again to get something from that cloth monkey.  I have finally woken to the insanity of this – no matter how hard I try, that cloth monkey has nothing to give and will continually throw me away – because that is all it knows. 

For me, I have decided (again :roll: ) that it is time to take all that energy that I am uselessly throwing at a cloth monkey (including all of the memories that I rehash over and over trying to find the reason in them) and put it someplace where it will be really valued – towards myself and my real family.   

Not sure if any of this will resonate with you, but I am very grateful to you for asking the question – you have really helped me to resolve some of these issues in my mind.

Much love to you,
Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

Ami

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2007, 12:28:45 PM »
Dear Peace
  That post was worth------ ten years of therapy( with a good therapist). Peace, that was pure  wisdom.
 Thank you so much. That was one of the most profound posts I have ever read.      Love   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

sunnydays

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2007, 12:45:10 PM »
I really love this thread -- everything you've said Finding Peace. Thanks for sharing.

lighter

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2007, 01:33:53 PM »


Ahem... Peace.

Thanks for your honesty. 

It's appreciated, even if I don't agree with everything you've written.....

but of course I find I do, so ........ I am grateful as well: ) 

Truly.

It's not always necessary to be understood but.... it surely feels good to stand in the glow, every once in a while. 

As far as Idiot Compassion.....It's a funny ole thing to refuse to participate, for you give up the ability to receive it, as well. :shock:

::whispering:: I'm good with that.....

and I promise to return the gift. 

Now.... for the really important topic!

HALLOWEEEEEEN IS ALMOST HERE!
[/b]


::running around doing the Halloween Happy Dance, which looks supsiciously like the reg happy dance::


Yay yay yay yay Yay YAY!  Yay yay yay yay Yay YAY!

I LOVE Halloween..... drinks all around!  (make mine with extra hemlock, nice and stout!)

So..... you think you wanna wear the armbands of Wonderwoman and wield the rope of truth, do ya?

I think they'll look great on you.... btw....

especially with your newly fashioned leather breast armor.....

I'm sorry.... I couldn't bring myself to do the matching bronze rope theme....

Simply wouldn't do, but....

we can discuss the very cool high waisted fluffy fur (pretty darned short) skirt with matching fur fluffs on the boots.  I thought it was a bit late for sandals..... getting cooler here and all.

Would you be willing to stow the rope as a tail?  I just like the idea :D


isittoolate

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2007, 02:14:34 PM »
hi Peace
Thank you your post to me
I am doing well with the broken leg. Eveything is under control.

My brother did not know of my broken leg either but will if Ruth told him by email,

Yes Ruth I will converse with, and on the basis that I was a separate sister not to be talked about to the others, and my words would not go any further. It appears they have.

I am not into the phony concerns from the other two sisters. (N sister wouldn't email anyway)

My move was the best thing for me re my FOO and daughter

Love
Izzy

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Bella_French

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2007, 07:13:46 PM »
However, by the time I got to the last paragraph, the thought occurred to me that maybe, by going NC, I have shown true compassion – both for myself and for my M.  Instead of living a lie and staying in an abusive relationship with my M - maybe my actions will be the impetuous for her to examine her own part in the pathology, and by doing so grow?  Seems a bit presumptuous of me to assume that she needs to examine anything?

Shortly thereafter it occurred to me that with true Ns – it doesn’t really matter does it?  No matter what you do or say, be it the truth or idiot compassion - they will always mutate it to suit their agenda.


Dear finding Peace,

This is an interesting question, and it pretty much sums up why I do not identify very well with the term `enabling'. For starters, the term  kind of implies that we can influence other people's addictions or mental illness through acts of compassion (or lack thereof), and that others can somehow be partly responsible for mental illness or addictive behavior.

But I do not agree with this, as both of these situations occur, as we know, due to childhood trauma and take a lot of personal commitment (from the sufferer) to overcome. As i understand it,NPD or addiction can't be `cured' by someone else setting some boundaries with them.  In any case, I have only known of people changing such behaviour when they received serious professional help and/or made a serious commitment to do so for their own sake.

I feel that boundaries are not for the addict or mentally ill person; they are really for people around them when they feel they are being harmed.

Anyway, thanks for th interesting discussion Peace!


X Bella

 





finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2007, 08:19:28 PM »
Dear Sunnydays,

Thank you so much!!!

((((((((((Welcome to VESMB - I am glad you found this place))))))))))))

Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination