Author Topic: Idiot Compassion  (Read 9171 times)

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2007, 08:24:41 PM »
To everyone else who posted - I have to take a break tonight - gotta bad migraine (feels like a vice clamp around my head). 

Thanks for responding - will try to post tomorrow. 

((((Everyone)))))
- Life is a journey not a destination

Ami

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2007, 08:42:57 PM »
Dear Peace,
  Really strong coffee taken at the beginning of a migraine can stop it. Coffee constricts(i think) the blood vessels. The migraine opens them too much.
  Whichever way it works, coffee can  help or even stop it  .                  Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Certain Hope

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2007, 09:00:03 PM »
(((((((Peace))))))) Prayers for you to feel better soon... and rest well!

The computer screen in midst of a migraine is torture, I know.

Darkness and a hot damp sock across forehead (microwaved?) can bring some relief.

I'm so sorry you're in pain. Will be thinkin of you.

With love,
Carolyn

lighter

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2007, 06:47:46 AM »
Are you sure they're migrains Peace?

I have a friend who was given an injection on a plane once.... by a doctor who saw him suffering with a headache.

He gets cluster headaches.

Anyway..... the injection worked like a charm and he's living without all that fear and pain now.

I'll ask him what it is and how it works: /

((Peace))

Ami

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2007, 10:26:08 AM »
Dear Peace,
  When I first came on the board,I had really bad stomach aches all the time. I always had DGL (licorice tablets) that soothe the stomach -- with me. When I was on the board,I was always sucking on them. I hardly need them anymore,I am so much better ,as my emotions heal.
 Just my particular situation                    Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2007, 05:46:18 PM »
Dear Bella,

I have been thinking of your post.  A lot of wisdom there.

You said:
Quote
For starters, the term  kind of implies that we can influence other people's addictions or mental illness through acts of compassion (or lack thereof), and that others can somehow be partly responsible for mental illness or addictive behavior.
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In my view, it depends on what type of dysfunction we are talking about.

Take a drug addict for example.  If I offer true compassion, which in this case may be an intervention, I may have influenced the dysfunction if they accept it and go off drugs.  On the other hand, they may not accept it.  I have offered true compassion and may have influenced the outcome – but either way I don’t own the outcome - the person addicted to drugs owns it.  If I offer idiot compassion, in this case an extreme example would be giving the drug addict drugs because I can’t stand to see them go through withdrawal.  I am not responsible for the person being a drug addict, but I would feel personally resonsible for enabling the addication (and ultimately all I have done is assuaged my own feelings because I couldn't stand to see them in pain).  Extreme case I know. 

With true Ns or Ps – I think you are right.  No matter how much compassion we give them, they will take whatever you give them and use it to their advantage, offentimes against you.  I believe that there is no influencing a true N, and in fact, they are exactly the type to take the word enabling and use it to place blame on the person trying to help them.

And – I think this is one of the key factors that Ns use to manipulate people.  They use a person’s empathy or compassion against them – and it creates a real vicious cycle.

You also said
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NPD or addiction can't be `cured' by someone else setting some boundaries with them.
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Nope – they can’t.  It has been my experience that even to attempt to set boundaries with a true N will backfire – IME, an N will see a boundary as a challenge that must be demolished (I’ve known some pretty nasty Ns). 

The very nature of the disease makes it a double bind in getting help.  They have to admit something is truly wrong and that they need help before any change can be made – and that goes against the very nature of the disorder.  I read once of an N who was able to get help and turn his life around – and he said it was almost impossible.  He said it took a huge, negative, life-altering experience that he could not hide from and years and years of therapy before his N diagnosis was reversed.  Interesting though – it was reversible in his case – but no amount of outside influence got him to the point where he could admit that he needed a change.  It was his own undeniable devastation that prompted his seeking to change.

Very thought provoking - thanks!

Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2007, 05:51:33 PM »
Ami, Carolyn, Lighter, and CB,

Thank you so much for your words of comfort.  Not used to those.  I have the migraine dregs today – but it is far better than the actual migraine. 

((((everyone))))

Ami – was your second post a gentle nudge :wink:.  You are right, it most likely is stress influenced – work has been a bear.  I used to get migraines all the time.  They were cyclical so I think they were influenced by hormones.  Was placed on a BP med a while ago and that helped, but every once in awhile they break through.  I usually try coffee (for me I found that it helps to load it up with sugar – usually drink coffee black, but for some reason the sugar seems to help so there may be a hypoglycemia factor there).

Lighter and CB – depending on when that injection was given (if it was a number of years ago), it might have been Imitrex before they made it in pill form.  For a long time Imitrex was only available by injection.  I had the pill form for migraines a long time ago, but can’t take it anymore.  (hmmmm – I think I am going to have to look into morphine or maybe a horse tranquilizer :shock: )

Carolyn, I usually go for cold when it is a migraine, don’t know why; haven’t tried heat.  Will do that next time.   I am glad to hear that you got through the Dentist's appt. ok.  Not easy I know - and I can totally relate to the clenching hands.  I can also relate to the expense  :x .  I also do not mind in the slightlest that you moved the other post.  I have to go out for a bit, but will try to get back tonight.

Again, thanks for all of your concern!
Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2007, 05:53:14 PM »
Hi Izzy,

I had a similar thing happen to me.  I had a relative who could not keep information to herself no matter how many times I asked that she not tell others.  The only thing I could do in that situation was to limit my discussions with her to things that I was ok with her telling others (she could not help herself – it was almost pathological).

It was very, very, frustrating – especially after I set a boundary around the conversation, she agreed, and then went out and did the opposite  :x.  She lost my trust after that.

I am sorry that your sister did this.

Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

Bella_French

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2007, 07:04:19 PM »
In my view, it depends on what type of dysfunction we are talking about.

Dear finding Peace,

I can totally agree with this comment! Very wise words.

Take a drug addict for example.  If I offer true compassion, which in this case may be an intervention, I may have influenced the dysfunction if they accept it and go off drugs.  On the other hand, they may not accept it.

 My experience with interventions is that they only work if a threat is involved, and that once the threat or `control'  is removed, or the addict otherwise becomes less fearful, the motivation to quit the addiction is also removed. A typical example is the addict who just leaves their relationship to avoid the `threat', or quits because his peers have a great influence in their life and shame them into quitting. Then some sort of stress comes along, and the addict just goes back to their old ways, often in secret.

  If I offer idiot compassion, in this case an extreme example would be giving the drug addict drugs because I can’t stand to see them go through withdrawal.  I am not responsible for the person being a drug addict, but I would feel personally resonsible for enabling the addication (and ultimately all I have done is assuaged my own feelings because I couldn't stand to see them in pain).  Extreme case I know.

I guess you could also say that having an intervention is also about assuaging the feelings of those around the addict, just in a different way?.

Also, my main issue with informaton surrounding  substance addiction, is that the examples I've read to illustrate it are always `extreme examples', inspiring imagery of the ghettos, when the life of the addict has spiraled out of control. Usually they talk about hard drugs, or extreme alcoholism blended in with violence, abuse, and criminal activity, when most addicts do not conduct themselves this way necessarily.

I think the majority of substance abusers are highly functional, and non criminal or violent, if you include smokers and people who drink every night after work in this picture.

My main point i guess, is that I feel that I still have a lot to learn about this, and the extreme examples I've found in co-D literature, combined with the necessity to believe in God, and the ` black and white' type of  proposed solutions, have not fit scenarios I've found myself in personally, nor my personal belief systems surrounding being agnostic and personal responsibility for ones actions.

Its all a bit frustrating, i guess. But i thank you so much for the opportunity to discuss this topic; it holda  personal interest for me, based on my past struggles with my ex.

X Bella











Hopalong

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2007, 07:36:39 PM »
Hi Peace...

I wonder if you've ever tried the herb feverfew? I hear it really helps.

My mother has had migraines for years. Now she has an Rx for Maxalt, which she takes at the first sign.
It's more effective than anything else she's tried.

gentle very gentle forehead-stroke,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2007, 08:29:00 PM »
Dear Bella,

I am sorry if I hit a nerve – was not my intent at all.

I was using the extreme example to illustrate a point, and I am afraid it is about the most I know about addiction – except that both my parents were alcoholics.

I think I understand what you are saying.  Is it like Steve’s model – whereby we are in control of ourselves regardless of what goes on around us?

In the case (sorry) of the extreme drug user, if you put drugs in front of them, it is not enabling because it is the sole responsibility whether or not the drug user picks them up, and therefore, there is no such thing as enabling?

This is a real stretch for me.  I love this model, but haven’t quite gotten to the point of adopting it as I vacillate between believing in complete autonomy and the theory that we all influence each other.  Kinda like the butterfly in Beijing story – where the butterfly flaps its wings in Beijing and we end up with a hurricane in the states.

I do really like this model tho.

Much love to you and again, I am sorry if I struck a nerve  :(

Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination

finding peace

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2007, 08:31:43 PM »
((((Thanks Hops - I am going to look into those))))))
- Life is a journey not a destination

Bella_French

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2007, 09:06:53 PM »
Dear finding peace,

Oh I'm so sorry- no you didn't strike a nerve, as you word things so well and with such care in your tone, always. I should have let you know that my `issue' wasn't with your post at all; it just reminds me of the many `superfical' books I've read on the topic, you know? You didn't upset me at all. I'm just terrible at expressing myself properly.(sorry!) And hugs to you, for being so caring.

I'm not familiar with `steves' model ? But it does sound like what I believe, sort of. I really do agree that people influence one another to various degrees, but only when we give them permission to (or when we're children).  I guess I hold very strong views about my own personal accountability for my actions, and i feel the same about others. Its remarkably empowering, although its not easy to overcome a victim mentality when you've been victimised, I  definately relate to that!

Thanks so much for writing; I'm sorry to hear about your parents drinking. That must have been hard, growing up.

X Bella


EDIT: I just wanted to add an afterthought...in the example you used of giving someone drugs who is vulnerable to addiction and going through withdrawral, or offering fattening foods to someone who is a dieter...that sort of thing...I learned that this was called `sabotage' rather than enabling, and usually occurs because the other person has a vested interest in the addict being ill. So I can see what you mean about `influencing' someone who is clearly vulnerable. That makes sense to me.






« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 09:25:51 PM by Bella_French »

Ami

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2007, 09:53:37 PM »
Dear Peace,
  When I read Storms post,I saw that I got it ALL wrong in my first posts about it. Then I thought, maybe this happened so you could give me that wonderful life changing answer that you gave me.I really think that it did b/c I was having an emotional block to understanding the topic.  However,I think that I have it now. i think that I have an example of not giving "idiot compassion with my H.
  I have started  to get my own voice back, thanks to you on the board. One day, something in me just shifted and I 'knew" that I would not be abused by him any more. I did not scream, talk in a loud voice etc. I spoke  in a very low, deliberate voice. He "got" it that something had changed.
  He CANNOT act the way he did before  b/c I have too much inherent value(now) to absorb it .
  So, he is healing from his FOO  b/c I am healing. So, I was being compassionate to him by not LETTING  him abuse me., He has started facing his FOO issues, just as I am. We are starting to have fun together and feel a little closeness.He is healing b/c I would not allow him to abuse me anymore.
  By Jove, I think I got it!                                                   Love    Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Bella_French

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Re: Idiot Compassion
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2007, 10:20:40 PM »
Dear Ami,

That is such wonderful news. I got the sense that this is where things we headed for the two of you, when you wrote about the good experiences you had before your party. It is just so wonderful to hear the changes in your relationship. Thankyou for the good news.

love Bella