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Emasculating insecure Dads

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Tokyojim:
MrTraced,

You didn't know about football when you were in TEXAS?   You are lucky to be alive!

I am just joking, but I did work around Texans when I lived in the Alaska bush.  What was interesting was the "toughest" one I ran across who was in charge of many people, was about 6'4" with a big beard and very deep voice.  He had two passions: Cooking and sewing!

I have just run across a number of males who press for certain behaviors related to "masculinity."  When I was younger, I either got intimidated or angry.  One macho Texan actually said, "You probably don't know anything about the ABC football team, do you?" in a condescending tone.  I replied, "Oh, they are the ones with the colorful blue uniforms, aren't they?"  He left me alone after that.

Karin:
I want to thank you guys so much for your insights and for confirming to me what I thought could have gone on in my ex husbands mind. (He never really let me in and I could only guess what was going on).  

Your description of your parents Spirit is close to how his parents were/are. His father was always a super-N but his mother I blame for the most damage because she had a choice. She sacrificed her four children for her own selfishness in the same way that you so perfectly describe. As vile as Ns are, she I consider to be the vilest because she could have tempered her husbands behaviour, instead she compounded it.

I admire so much men like you who have the courage to face reality, something that my husband couldn’t do. I don’t know why he couldn’t take that step towards healing, I told him a million times that I was there to support him (without the matyrdom - I stood up for myself and our kids when I had to) and felt his anger/sadness and didn’t take personally his venting onto me, until the last straw of his infidelities. I know that he related me with his mother somehow but to me it would have been such an easy first step to rid himself of all that garbage they laid on him. Instead, he chose to keep it. He wanted to remain the hurt child. Why? Any ideas?

Karin

Anonymous:
Hi MrT and Jim,

I think in general the issue of questioning masculinity arises ( at a social / cultural level ) because men usually don't actually make being a man look very attractive ( the glamour usually is restricted to certain pseado macho males things alone ) This is where I admire what the feminists have done to women ! Women have somehow manged not to have much gender insecurity.. probably because the general 'female' norm gives broader acceptance and is made to look appealing !

Men need to fight for more flexibility !

On the other hand what I can't stand is the double standard of some women ! These women 'use' feminism as a trump card ! They need the feminist cushion not to get criticised i suppose !  being religious, being a femist etc for them is like relieving themselves of responsibility.. the 'moral right' to give themselves the luxury or being seen only as a victim or as a recipient ' cos they are eternally being victimised ' These women need to give men a break ! or men need to fight and stand up for themselves ( shredding that ' real men don't fight women ' clause )

About games.. I love football ( read soccer ) On the other hand I do love art, and could easily cry in a cinema getting all sensitive. Hey I don't care what the guy sitting next to me thinks ! I can't stand auto talk and guys talking of sex all the time.. it really drives me wild ! In all I think I am doing fine when it comes to gender roles. Culture and peer pressure do give us men a tough time but I suppose we seem to be fairing well in that regards.



--- Quote from: Karin ---

Your description of your parents Spirit is close to how his parents were/are. His father was always a super-N but his mother I blame for the most damage because she had a choice. She sacrificed her four children for her own selfishness in the same way that you so perfectly describe. As vile as Ns are, she I consider to be the vilest because she could have tempered her husbands behaviour, instead she compounded it.
--- End quote ---


Thank you very very much for your input Karin. It was really nice to get input from a woman who has had to put up with a guy with similar background as mine . It must have been hard for you and I do appreciate your concern for yourself and your kid by doing the right thing of chosing to live separated. Abuse is usually so easy to spot but neglect is so hard sometimes. That too when it comes from a woman ( they are usually more subtle than men ) it is even harder . Believe me it has taken me 28 years.. and still I sometimes don't believe myself. My thoughts are with your ex husbands here aswell becuase I know it is very very very very hard to come to terms with reality !


--- Quote --- I know that he related me with his mother somehow but to me it would have been such an easy first step to rid himself of all that garbage they laid on him. Instead, he chose to keep it. He wanted to remain the hurt child. Why? Any ideas?

Karin
--- End quote ---


Mom. she represented women from day one. Reality is she is empty. What did she reflect in her eyes when she saw me ? fear panic and avoidance. In otherwords the first reflection or 'greeting' I got when I entered planet earth.. was 'hi you are frightening, panicky and need to be avoided " It gets imprinted ! plus that slide remark" i do love you" and the kid is taken he/she tries playing hero to mom !!! He/she sacrifices him/herself for her sake.. not to be like his/her menacing dad..to win her love and affection.. and he/she even gets rewarded for being "quiet and not troublesome like noisy self boasting dad"

For a girl child... she rejects whatever it consideres is menacing in her dad I suppose ( thankfully it doesnt invove her gender ).. but for a guy he even rejects being a man to win his mom's love.. he questions his masculinity cos he can't win a woman PLUS he is losing out to another man !!!!!( in a battle that was fought for the sake of that Bitch..whom he/she sadly never realises shall never be won )

The girl child who replaces mom, inaway 'fits in' as she is seen mature beyond age and a great caregiver.. mother theresa style ! Darn socity even rewards it !!
But for a guy who replaces mom, haha sissy ! the redicules drives him back to being the hurt child I suppose... and he leave the caregiving to a woman ! he instead of feeling like a mom feels shy about it and hence looks elsewhere for a 'mom' I suppose ! the hurt child

I am not sure of the links in this page but I think psychoanalysis explain these.  ( My view above is very laypersons view and involves analysis of myself.. which could be very inacurate ) But hey.. I feel blurting out and sharing certain intimate things about myself.. no point holding on to toxic shame. !

Anonymous:
I really appreciate your 'blurting out' Guest (I presume that's you, Spirit) because I do understand how terribly hard and complicated this is for you (and my ex). It was nice of you to include my ex in your thoughts, because I still do feel incredibly sorry for him but know that I also can't do a thing to help and I must look after my own 'spirit' that he was destroying.

My ex was definitely trying to be the hero for his mother's love, he was the good little boy and yes, I can see how his father would have tried to 'toughen' him up. So when he did behave 'tough' he overdid it and ended up in big trouble. (As an 8-9 year old he got in with a gang and derailed a train). That would have gone down like a lead balloon with his Mum I suspect; being hauled in front of the court and her mothering abilities questioned.

I can see why he was the way he was. His mother neglected him and he in turn has neglected his children. "Your Dad loves you, you know" is all he could manage with ours. It's a shame that he couldn't break the cycle.

I did feel for a time that he wasn't 'a man', not that he was gay, but that he lacked certain qualities that I thought he should've had as a family man. Like he was not overly protective of me and the kids. It was me that would investigate strange noises at night. He was stronger than me but he still willingly let me or even preferred that I protect him.
Talk about complicated gender roles!
Anyway, I just wanted hear your thoughts to see if mine were somehow on the right track.
Thanks again,
Karin.

Spirit:

--- Quote from: Anonymous --- It was nice of you to include my ex in your thoughts, because I still do feel incredibly sorry for him but know that I also can't do a thing to help and I must look after my own 'spirit' that he was destroying.
--- End quote ---


In fact it is magnanimous of you to think of him. If he did to his kids what his mom did to  him, they hey he deserves nothing more than what his mom expects. My imcluding him in my thoughts was part of me forgiving the myself ( in him ) by owning responsibility.


--- Quote --- My ex was definitely trying to be the hero for his mother's love, he was the good little boy and yes, I can see how his father would have tried to 'toughen' him up. So when he did behave 'tough' he overdid it and ended up in big trouble. (As an 8-9 year old he got in with a gang and derailed a train). That would have gone down like a lead balloon with his Mum I suspect; being hauled in front of the court and her mothering abilities questioned.
--- End quote ---


Looking by it I do see similarity with nmy case. But I feel that his dad atleast did his role right. For me it was a bit different. My dad was also like me ( and your ex ) I think.. who was craving for love and attention. He was a begging and crawling for me to show love to him.. never took the initiative himself. I once hit a kid in school.. even though I was timid otherwise. My dad almost celebrated it and had the teachers complained, he would have encouraged me to fight more. That perhaps was his way of showing that he was tough !! trying to prove things through me :cry: He would use it as an oportunity to humiliate my mom.. it is as if he had hit someone and gone tough himself ! Even when I was timid he and mom would profoundly lie to me " you are brave " " you are tough " " you are naughty.. you are like me " etc etc.... perhaps it is the sweet lies he wanted to hear about himself I think !

Therefor in a way I controlled myself in all ways by not showing those agressive impulses too ( in order to take care of my dad too ) and not just my mom !!                


--- Quote --- I can see why he was the way he was. His mother neglected him and he in turn has neglected his children. "Your Dad loves you, you know" is all he could manage with ours. It's a shame that he couldn't break the cycle.
--- End quote ---
It is a shame for him indeed, but Karin please do understand  it is NOT your fault ! you don't have to feel guilty about it. He has to take responsibility for himself, and all the significant other can do is offer help and understanding ( without being selfish and critical ) and you certainly have done your best. You have often asked him to get therapy and you definitely do seem to have an understanding nature. You did your best and you certainly can feel proud of yourself !


--- Quote --- I did feel for a time that he wasn't 'a man', not that he was gay, but that he lacked certain qualities that I thought he should've had as a family man. Like he was not overly protective of me and the kids. It was me that would investigate strange noises at night. He was stronger than me but he still willingly let me or even preferred that I protect him.
Talk about complicated gender roles!
--- End quote ---

I must admit that is what many women feel about me. women who are unlike my mom. I think I am protective infact very protecting when it comes to crisis....thats perhaps I have always lived in crisis and are more comfortable with it. An earthquake, or a powercut ? I kinda feel at ease as if the world has come to my level. But I do understand what you mean. I usually let the woman take the initiative in day to day life, and in fact as you put it, prefer the woman to take the initiative. Some how I find it natural, contrary to how the world thinks. That is perhaps I am used to pleasing others feelings and that is 'love' and natural order for me. But the problem nowadays-  when I started doing research is that the conflict widens. My intellects confronts my feelings. When I expect a woman to protect me, my heart says 'yes' and I feel lovely , but my intellect intervenes and says 'no.. you are merely reenacting your past traumas of being voiceless.. wake up and fight '
And imagine when I take an initiative for myself  ie. getting back to therapy.. my intellect says 'yes.. go on you need to break the chain' while the heart says 'no.. you are torturing yourself..what is the point of breaking the chain to take on a lifestyle that is contrary to your feelings'

the jekyl and Hyde scenario. It depends on who has power when.. it is like trying to walk in two directions just because I got two legs.. finally I end up spending too much energy and gets exhausted.. but the result I end up nowhere.. and neither my head nor my heart is satisfied ! But I won't lose my spirit !

Keeping strong.. spirit

ps. Sorry sometimes I might be confusing you by using words in inappropriate context. I am a Srilankan ( living in UK though ) and my command of English language is reasonable but by no means sufficient to express complex thoughts and feelings

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