Trip report

[Hopalong]

Hi folks,
My visit with my D went wonderfully. I brought her presents and a cake and we both stayed relaxed. Had a great dinner out, met her friends afterward, she worked the next day and I did my business excursions, we met again that night, saw a movie together, and the next day I bought her a dress to wear to an upcoming wedding. Sunday SHE suggested we go to church, so we met there as is our custom when I'm in town. During the service (I was planning to leave after lunch) she cuddled up and kept resting her head on my shoulder. My heart was so grateful, because it's such a turnaround. I was enjoying the service, as she seemed to be, and so grateful for the peace and closeness between us.

Then. After church, in the hour before I was to leave, she picked a fight. Don't know how else to describe it. She started off with not liking the sermon ("And I don't ever want to go to church with you again, it's stupid and condescending.") Then, "And don't even think of asking me to come home for Tgiving or Xmas, you know I don't do those holidays." I said, I know, I let go of that wish a few years back. I know you don't do them and I wasn't going to bring it up. She says, well you are going to, you always do. I said, I feel I'm defending myself against a charge of guilty for something that hasn't even happened. She next brings up a comment I made two visits prior. I remembered it, and told her I'd apologized wholeheartedly at the time of my offense, and didn't feel I needed to keep doing it. She brought up another issue, from 4 years previous, demanding that I retract something I'd said 4 years earlier, and also say to her, I was wrong to ever think it (I had believed she was bulimic and gone to visit her and tell her what I feared. Her stepmother had found evidence and it seemed to fit...she'd been eating huge meals, vomiting, and was extremely thin). Now, she's normal weight, a little over, and very healthy.

At any rate, it never escalated because I stayed very calm and just listened. She repeated her grievances over and over and said, and that's why our relationship is crap. Other hurtful remarks. I didn't take bait or defend myself and just listened. She calmed down. At lunch we saw her friends at the restaurant. Once again, they commented on how much we look alike. She said NO, I look like my Dad. (I wish I could tell people not to say this, but they always do.) I know how much she misses her Dad. I know how much she wants to not be over dependent on me. We had a quiet, gentle parting.

But afterward driving home I thought about how peaceful and happy the 3 days had been. How she hugged and cuddled and seemed to be drinking up my affection again. And how she picked a fight just before I left. It felt as though she wasn't satisfied until she'd hurt my feelings. But I didn't get worked up or act hurt about anything.

I wondered if she picked a fight because it's scary for her to say goodbye. To have gotten so close again. To have felt close and connected. As though she had to "correct that" by being angry, even if she seemed to be pumping up her anger intentionally, and out of the blue.

I've never been more certain that I didn't do anything insensitive, intrusive or inappropriate. I know we had a very good time. I'm somewhat baffled and bewildered by this pattern of hers.

I'm writing about it here because I wonder if anyone thinks I might be interpreting it right, and also, do you think I should address what happened at the end, or just stay quiet about it? Would it be good to ask her, do you think it might be possible that you felt a need to become angry to create distance because I was leaving? I doubt that she'd like an analytical response, so I don't really think that's a good idea. I just am not sure if ignoring it is healthy either.

Suggestions very welcome. I'm not traumatized. It really was a wonderful visit. It's the last hour I don't know how to process yet. Mostly, I'd like to contribute something positive in my response, or not respond if that would make things worse.

It felt like, we had a 90% terrific time together and she felt compelled to create 10% pain. Confusing.

But still, waaaaaay better and happier overall than we were a year ago.

Any thoughts? I'll work on catching up but got to run for work...

love and thanks,
Hops

[gratitude28]

(((((((((((((((Hops))))))))))))

I think your analysis might be right on the button - she is like a child where she wants you, but doesn't want to admit she wants you. It seems as if so far she is caught in the adolescent trap of emotions.

Maybe the separation between you and your husband delayed her growth.

I would not mention the final fight. She knows that it happened. Maybe if you do focus on only the good, she will start to focus on the fact that she receives more response from that than from her more childish behavior.

I am glad you had a nice trip and good connection with your daughter for most of the time there.

Love, Beth

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
  I think that "picking fights" are typical behaviors when we leave people we love. You can almost count on it.
  My take on her comments from the last hour are based on my various relationships. With my kids, we always could be really honest with each other all the way along the growing up years and now.I don't have 'grudges" built up with them b/c we have structured the relationship this way.
  If they are angry,it is about a "current" matter---so it is not that we are having a fight about one thing and it really "means" another.
   HOWEVER, with my relationship with my M, F and H. We could be having a fight over "subject A "but it could really be "subject B" from 10 years ago.
 So to  get really,gut level honest you need several ingredients. One is  that each person willing to be honest with themselves. Then,each person  is willing to be honest with the other.These may sound" easy' but if there has been a breakdown in communication somewhere and resentments formed,it is very hard to get to gut level honesty.
  I think that she is trying to express deeper issues in a "sideways" manner.HOWEVER,I think that since 90% of your visit went well.,it is a celebration.
  With my H, we have years of pain and resentment.Now, we seem to be able to be getting to the place that I was talking about above(each honest with themselves and each other). However, the timing was right (in BOTH people)for it,now.
  You can't "push" something like this.It has to evolve with trust and both people's maturity.
  I think that ,overall,it was a very,very successful visit. Rome was not built in a day. You have issues to resolve with each other. It looks like you have made a really good start
   Last year at this time( when you wanted  to go on the beach vacation,) you would have been thrilled to have this level of closeness.Am I right?
  I would say to celebrate the visit within yourself and with her. Just my take. As always..........compost pile .....                           Love    Ami

[cats paw]

Hi Hops,

   I think it's wonderful that you just listened.  That your D was able to cuddle up speaks volumes as to part of the equation.

   It seems to me she is still needing an enormous amount of mothering from you- another part of the equation.  The kind of mothering in which she will really learn, down to her very toes, that it is ok with you that she is totally herself.  That you somehow get who she is, and you accept her without the longing kind of disappointment.  People can disagree, be disappointed, but it can be very sticky territory indeed, for mothers and daughters.

   It seems she was going to church to please you, since she suggested it, but maybe she is not steady enough within herself to be able to purchase that type of gift for you without some type of buyer's remorse within herself.  

   IMO, it sounds like the reason she is bringing up past grievances is she wants to make sure they are not repeated.  That could dovetail with the issue of closeness and distancing.  However, she is an adult, and needs to share in the responsibility of respectful communication.

   I don't know what you want to do as far as addressing the last hour of your visit, or the 10%, but my vote is to let it go unless you get cues from her that she wants to bring it up.  

   I just think you need to tread very carefully.  You can't deny your reality, but you have to choose how to present it, and if it's even necessary to do so.  I can understand how you had fears when it seemed she was bulimic, and I can understand how she would want you to say you were wrong to ever think it.  I can understand her position if she was bulimic, or if she wasn't, because it seems the issue was not the bulimia.  Might that help guide you in future interactions?  Unless of course, she would act in an abusive, entitled, or severly self-harmful manner.  That situation would call for a different type of interaction.

   I'm glad your relationship is better than it was, and I hope it will continue to improve.  Is your D independent and self- supporting?

   Hops, I hope I was not offensive.  If so, I am totally open to your telling me if anything was hurtful.

cats paw

[lighter]

So glad you're back.

90% warmth and cuddles is a wonderful trip.

Nice you could sit and just let her have her feelings and not get hooked into reacting..... there really wasn't anything to discuss.

She vented.... sounds like it's what you thought it was over her father and saying goodbye.

I'd stay positive and maybe ask her if theres anything she still needs to discuss.... you enjoyed the visit and look forward to the next one.  Maybe she just needs to feel validated to move past some of those things?



(((Hops))) It sounds like it was a great visit: )

[Hopalong]

Thank you everyone, so much.

I'm glad I wasn't totally in the dark about what was happening.
It does make me sad but I think it's best, as you say, to stay calm and positive,
and listen as much as I can.

I sometimes don't know how much I should listen to without challenging it.
Her anger is so omnipresent and I am such a placater that I worry about not speaking up.

She does appear to deliberately say hurtful things. So I don't know. (That's one reason
I finally left her father...intentional hurt.) I fear for this part of her, how it will affect
her future relationships. She can be toxically negative, and overpower anything you
try to point to as positive.

But you've convinced me and I'll let it rest. Thanks for the guidance.

love
Hops

[lighter]

I wonder how you can help her get past the anger and hurt.....

so she doesn't carry it with her the rest of her life.

[isittoolate]

hi Hops,
We haven't compared notes in a long time. How old is your daughter? Mine is 43 and I cannot imagine having a cuddle with her under whatever circumctances, nor nearly the apparent closeness you shared with yours.

Obviously there is a problem.
I wrote a song as though My daughter wrote it about "The Man I Never Knew". The last verse....
Too quickly the years have passed by me. Mama's gone and I'm now grown
My knight in shining armour had never made himself known.
And here I stand at his graveside, marked with a cold slab of stone
He lived by the bottle, died by his hand, penniless and all alone,

I wrote that back in the '90s (3 verses and Chorus) http://www.copwt.ca/nvrknew.mp3 (click to hear)and I doubt she heard it then I received this from her this past spring when I asked about her feelings re her Dad (she was 2½ when I left him.)I asked her this past Spring what her thought were about a father she had never known (enough to remember)  and she wrote.....

8.  You asked for thoughts about my Dad. I don't have much in the way of thoughts about my Dad.  I completely accept the fact that you had to leave him, and feel really bad for you that you never stopped loving him, and therefore could not love anyone else.  (I feel really bad for you that you have had such a shitty life overall).  I used to daydream (and sometimes at night) that he would come and save me from my sad little life, and when he came he would bring me a horse.  In my dream I would wake up and he would be standing in my room with the horse.  He was my daydream-knight-in-shining-armour, probably because you told me that he loved me still, which meant that he was the only other one who did.  The year he died, I had planned to take a bus to Mattawa that summer to visit him, but then he died in April.  I was devastated, because then that dream of someone saving me died too.  It's not so much that I was sad that he died or that I missed him, because I couldn't miss someone I didn't know, but that I missed that little hope inside that kept me going.  As I reflect on the time when you had to break the news to me that he'd died, I feel that you handled it well.  I visited a psychic once, who was able to channel spirits.  I asked about him then.  Apparently he still loved me then.  I think that's about all of my thoughts about my father.

I acknowledged her 'sad, little life"---"only one who loved her"-- she really had a false dream about him, since he never sent Support, never a Birthday Card/gift, never a Christmas Card/gift----but he was her DREAM and even now it is real to her, even when her ex is not recognizing his children, which she recognizes.

I can never compete with that dream. Mom had chores for her. Dad had a horse! (This was new to me this past Spring!)

This will be us to the end, and by not digging down to regain my feelings for her, I will forego the emotional pain --I'll just know it in my head!

Love Izzy


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[teartracks]

Dear Hops,

So glad for your successful visit with your daughter.  And yes, I'd call a visit with 90% harmonious and fun with 10% disharmony in the overall fun.  That's not a bad ratio.  You have the comfort of knowing that you kept calm, open and loving 100% of the time.  To me that spells success. 

In followup communication, I would not bring up the 10%.  The disharmony didn't come from you.  It came from her.  I'd let her address it if she wants to in the future or not.   I'd keep loving her in your gentle motherly way in spite of it having happened.   I'd savor the snuggling, the shared memories and cherish it all.  I think I would even take the 10% aside and work with it alone, assign it's content to her and the grief you feel about it to a place of it's  own.  Kind of like Iz's fence where she throws the bad stuff over the fence.

It helps me to visualize my heart with many files.  If someone or a memory is precious to me, I file them in their own particular file in my heart.  I can open the file any time I like and experience the wonderfulness of that memory any time I like.  If it's a bad memory or a person who has hurt me, I put it in a bad memories file.  It's up to me to open the file or not.  It's up to me to empty the file or not. 


The main thing is that the two of you had a GOOD time.  Is there anything better than sitting in church and having your daughter snuggle your shoulder?  Yummmmmmy!

Love you Hops,

tt
 

[lighter]

:::Snap, snap, snap snapsnapsnapsnap::




::trying to snap self out of Izzy induced trance::

There should be warnings on graphics like that, IZZ, lol!

You wrote that song.... is that you singing it too?

[isittoolate]

Yes lighter

I wrote lyrics and music, but Barry laid tracks and Collette is singing. I found it interesting that what I felt she felt was pretty damned close--that she idolized her father so much, that she couldn't see I loved her--she was in the 'trance'.

Why were you in a trance?

Hops and I have/had the same problem, but there is more hope in store for her.

eh hops??????
love Izzy

[Ami]

I am so sorry Izzy for all the pain for you and your D.
 When I read TT post,I thought of all our unrequited loves( in many relationships). It reminds me of the girl in the casket.At some time,it is too late.
  Maybe I should make some calls while I still can to people who REALLY,REALLY hurt me(but I still  love them)
  This thread  "hits" me this way."
((((((((((((((Izzy,Izzy's D, Hops, Hop's D, TT, TT's children, and all of us))))))))))))))                     Love   Ami
 

[Hopalong]

Thank you, Izz...
I hear real love and compassion for you in your D's email.
I am really glad that happened.
Especially when I think of how it was when you first came on board.

(((((((((Izz)))))))))))

love to you,
Hops

And thank you TT...
That was very comforting. You're right. If I focus on the hurtful part,
I'm ignoring the rest, which is exactly what I'm hoping she won't do!
It was a great visit, a lovely leap. And I can keep the cuddles even
though she tried to take them back. One of the nice things to
observe was that in underreacting, I let the responsibility for ending
the sour period rest with her. So, she had the space to eventually
calm herself down. And did.

Can you imagine missing your dead parent so very much, and having
your friends ALWAYS tell you you look just like the live one (from whom
you're declaring your independence), every time they meet her?

love,
Hops

Thanks, Ami...that's kind of you. Compassion's contagious.
hugs,
Hops

[lighter]

Why were you in a trance?


love Izzy

Have you listened to that song lately?

The set it to hippie graphics I couldn't take my eyes off of, lol. 

[Poppy Seed]

Hey Hops!!

I am glad that you had this visit and that you are taking away the best perspectives.

Here's to the "lovely leap"  as you said it.  This made me smile!

Missed your voice around this place!!


Pops