Need the wisdom of my friends

[axa]

Need advice badly.

I called XN's daughter as I decided to tell her directly how I felt and my anxiety about her friendship with my son.  She was delighted to hear from me, I could hear the excitement in her voice.  I told her straight away why I was calling and she assured me she would not betray or hurt him in any way. She said she was sorry for how she had treated me and could not have contact with me because her mother said that she would not see her again if she did.  Also XN told her he did not want her having contact with me.  She said that now that she is older she would not make the choices she did.  We talked about a lot of stuff.  She acknowledged that her mother is unstable and is also aware that she manipulated her.  "The two of them, my parents, have their own agenda".   I assured her that that is not what one does when one loves someone.  She said she has distanced herself a lot from XN as he has let her down a lot, not turning up for her 18th birthday etc.  She said "He just gets on with what he wants and that is how it is"  She said her mother's grasp of reality is a bit better now!!! and she is so threatened by me. 

I told her how hurt I was by her behaviour and she sounded genuinely sorry.  I asked her if she had discussed me with her father and she said that our breakup was never mentioned.  She was very shocked when I told her about him turning up at my house in June.  While she loves him she seems very aware of how destructive he is and how little he cares about anyone elses feelings.  As she is now in college she spends a lot of time away from home and she said this was much easier for her.  About her parents she described them both as weird.

What I found sad was that when all the madness was going on she said she had no one to talk to about it and kept it all to herself.  I felt very sad for her about this because I had the support of friends and you guys to help me make sense of the madness. 

Something that caused me concern was I asked her if she ever wondered how I was feeling in all of the crazy making she hesitated for a minute and then said " I have to be honest and say no".  While I commend her honesty I am also aware of how disconnected this is.  It reminded me a bit of Xn somehow, a lack of empathy, considering I was her significant caregiver for the proceeding two and a half years.  Warning bells are ringing.

She said she wanted to contact me but felt unable because so much time had passed and she did not know how I would react to a call.  She said when she started college she did not know how to engage with people but has really nice room mates and observing them she is learning better social skills.  I found this profoundly sad.  She said she wanted a relationship with me but I told her I had reservations.  Where this would fit in my life and her life.  How I feel about having a connection with Xn's family.  She said her mother would be furious if she thought we had a relationship but it seems this would not stop her.  Maybe she would not let her mother/father know.

I told her I had spoken to Xn and he told me he was living alone now........ not true.  X/present wife is gone abroad to meet with him.  All of this I do not care about, in fact I just think lucky old me.

And now to the problem.  What to do?  I really do not know.  I believe she is well intentioned and do understand that she was a puppet and manipulated by her parents but I wonder do I know her.  I am so aware of the impact of her abandonment of me and do not want to set myself up again for more pain.  I need to learn the lesson from the past.  I also hear the voice of a young woman who has been badly treated by her parents and who I loved very much.  Is it safer for me to just politely go our seperate ways without anger?  I know that I loved the connection with her, she talked about boyfriends, college etc and it was lovely to share that.  I just do not want to make another mistake.  My heart is too precious to risk more hurt.  I really do not want to do anything to risk my own well being. I would love to gather her up and love her but there is a lesson hear for me and I need to learn it.  Where are you my teachers?

I finished the conversation by saying that she had things to think about and so did I.  She could text me.  I also said that if she decided not to text that would be okay with me.  She assured me that she would text me.  I don't know what to do but I do know that I am the priority here.

Axa

[Certain Hope]

Dear Axa,

My strong recommendation is to absolutely not get intimately involved.  Any of her intentions aside... blood is thicker than water... always.

Please take good care.

With love,
Carolyn

[lighter]

She can text....

       and you can respond and engage,
 
or respond and break off contact.  

You have time to think about it.

On the whole, I think you'd be better off not having a relationship with her.

But... for her... I think you could help her and you feel sorry for her, hard to say no if she keeps asking.  

I really liked the strength and peace you were coming accross with when you weren't being worrying with these people.

Now.... you've been pulled back into the past and, while it may be helping you shore up your convictions... I think it's robbing you of other things you were just learning to build and treasure.  

[Ami]

Dear Axa,
  I am here and I care.I really don't know what to do.I would probably have a soft heart and get involved . Carolyn makes a very good point, though.
  So,I have to go with my first response which is------I have no idea what to do but wanted to say that I care about you and am hoping that you have a good outcome.                    Love   Ami
((((((((((((((((Axa)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[sally]

Dear Axa,

I think you are getting sucked back into that N family and I feel you should stop immediately.

I think that the N's daughter contacting your son was a way to suck you back into their lives:  seems they may be re-manipulating you.

You now have a new life.  Please don't muck it up with old past negative people.

Please also realize that you have no control over your son having contact w/ the N's daughter.  That is your son's choice and he is an adult.

Just my 2 cents.  I don't want to see you hurt by these people again.

love,
sally

[axa]

Hearing you guys.  Thank you so much for this.  My instinct is to protect myself which feels healthy and right.  I feel for her but I know part of the the hook for me with XN was the responsiblity I felt for his D.  Also I must remember that when the chips were down she dumped me without a thought, no matter how much she regrets that now.  Hear that Blood is thicker than Water....

I also know in the past that I was "seduced" by her vulnerability maybe my own vulnerability needs to be my priority now.  I wish I could make life easier for her and that she had a healthy adult in her life but I am not responsible for her.  It all is so sad really.  I appreciate the clarity of peoples contributions and would welcome more discussion on this to enable me be as clear as possible.

Many thanks

Axa

[lighter]

Dump her or.....

 just text where you can give advice but on your own timetable..... when you're feeling like mentoring. 

It really has changed you're demeanor and internal sense of peace to deal with these people, IMO, Axa.

Limit contact or No contact. 

It can't be what it was. 

That's gone.

She's not a child in your care any longer.

She's a young woman who threw you to the wolves and she's damaged by an N...... attached to 2 damaged people.

She's still being tossed about in the ocean of their dyfunction and she's told you.... contact with you would cause chaos for her. 

I fear for you're emotional equilibrium. 

[Ami]

Since I am always looking for a M figure,what hit me was that she was looking for a M figure with you, Axa. However, this could be my scewed perspective  ,only                                                                      Ami

[Bella_French]

Dear Axa,

It sounds like the `other' Axa- the clever, unconscious one who craved your ex - is reeling you back into the old drama with him, but in a sideways kind of way. I definitely think trying to have a friendship with such a close relative of your ex, who you call his `puppet' is  recipe for disaster and sign of not having let go.

Sorry to come out and say it like that but i know how powerful the drive to self destruct can be.

X Bella

[gratitude28]

OK, Axa, Here's how I see it...
So what if she is nice now? So what if she is not an N? I don't think this is a person you need to have in your life at any rate. I would feel happy and content with the conversation you had and leave it at that - forever. Does that make sense? It sounds a lot harsher than I mean it to be. I know you had a relationship and this is a person you know. But if you stand back and look at the whole picture, this cannot be a good relationship to pursue.
((((((((((((((((((((((Axa)))))))))))))))
Love, Beth

[Hopalong]

Dear ((((((((((Axa))))))))))),

You're alone in a new home in a new city going to school for a new life.

You're alone in a new strange home in a new strange city going to a new strange school to build a new strange life.

The compelling "pull" toward the familiar N-drama--toward a person who was an intimate part of it--could that be any part of what pulled you into your decision to call her? Because you do know, telling some young person you're threatened or disturbed by their relationship with another young person, even your own, is trying to control something you can't?

Has reasoning with any N person about fairness or kindness or recklessness ever made any difference, in your experience? Have any N persons you've known been able to say all sorts of disarmingly honest things that you could interpret through the rosiest light, and thus persuade yourself to stay in relationship to them?

Can you think back and ask yourself, was the adrenalin leaping when you called her? Almost as it did back when you wanted him? Did you feel a sort of inchoate urge to make contact that just kept growing and growing until it felt irresistible and by the time you called her and told her all those honest things, did you have the feeling that doing this retroactively transformed that impulse into a positive? Did the she-said and I-said of this encounter calm the adrenalin, assuage that restlessness?

For me, this kind of impulse, which ran my life for several years in an obsessive and destructive N-chapter...felt like an emotional itch. Not a mild itch, but a growing clawing urge for contact which was always, always followed by my attempt to reason, explain, inspire, persuade, compell...control. (I felt I could not control myself...all my effort went into exhortation of the N.)

I am also wondering, dear heart, if your attachment to her is perhaps a way of trying to find a daughter figure?

with lots of love, compassion, and please don't beat yourself up no matter what you conclude about it, and compost...
Hops

[changing]

Dearest Axa-

Just as you have done with me, I am going to ask that first and foremost you take care of yourself. The foundations of this situation seem shaky at best- you keep your feet firmly planted on the ground, and your eyes on the mountaintop you are climbing- don't get toppled or distracted.
It is almost a prismatic thing,you and XN, she and your son, she and you, you and your son, she and XN, etc The myriad reflections can catch one's eye, certainly. You needn't be dismissive or cruel, but don't get swept into a vortex of familiar, yet destructive patterns and people. Stay in the calm center, and build your life and be there for your son, strong and wise. Like our Wise Hoppy.

Love and Peace,

Changing

[axa]

I so need to hear what you all had to say.

Changing,

One thing I am pleased about is the absolute clarity about me needing to take care of myself.  Your reinforcement on that point is so welcomed.  Building my own life is my priority and I need and want to hold onto that.

Oh Hops, you wise wise woman,

Yes, I had those feelings, the adrenilin pumped, the justification of myself, the appeal to her understanding, the desire for enmeshment, the connection with the daughter figure back in my life, the pull to the N drama.  I was so back in the explaining place again. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Beth,

Oozing gratitude for your straight talking.

Bella,

Not sure if it is a self destruct urge but without a doubt I want to put on those rose tinted glasses again.  The responses I have had from everyone have been so grounding for me, just what I needed to hear.  The honesty and concern for my well being is jumping off the screen at me.  I feel beloved, such a good feeling and in such an honest way.  I am not being manipulated by anyone here, each person is giving me their truth and I respect and value tha so much.  IT is such a different way of communicating compared to Nville.  It is REAL.

AMi,

I have no doubt she is looking for a mother figure, she has always been desperate for one having been abandoned by her mother so early on BUT I am not her mother, I am my son's mother and need to remember that.

CB

I am so conscious about the pull towards her.  I told her she needs to be her own best friend well I need to hear that myself.  If I am to be my own best friend I would remember the saying "believe behaviour and forget the words"  I have always been seduced by words, heck that is how I ended up with Xn.  Her lack of concern for me in the crazy making raises a bright, glowing red flag.  I did not matter to her then what makes it different now other than she would have the fun of me and a connection that makes her feel better.  I also take your point about there being something about control here for me.  You are right my son's life is my son's life.  I have no control over it.

"Pay attention to everything"  well, I was and I was back there trying to make it ok for her.  In some ways letting her off the hook wanting everything to be FIXED again.  Hops described my feelings perfectly, the buzz, the sense of I had sorted something out = control, a feeling of I made her see the truth which in reality is Bull.  There was an unconscious game going on with me, I am beginning to see that.  I was playing out my old fixer stuff - which as we grown ups know does not work.

Lighter,

Another wonderful straight talker.  Yes, it has changed my demeanour, the pull back to the drama is there.  And she did throw me to the wolves.  And she is still hooked into those two dysfunctional people and did I not say here on a number of occasions that I did not want any more drama in my life.  And did I not say I wanted nothing to do with XN and his family.  And did I not say I wanted healthy excitement and peace in my life.  Oh Axa, what a trip you have just had.  Need some grown up time again.

THinking it through - do I trust her - NO.  Why would I want someone in my life I do not trust
Do I think she wants contact with me because it is in my interest - NO I think it is because it makes her feel good.
Do I fear that she will use my son - unwittingly yes but it is outside of my control
Do I think her intentions are good - Yes but what does that mean in reality.
Do I think she would throw me to the wolves again if the occasion arose - Yes
Am I responsible for her - NO
Have I slipped back into the drama - Yes
Why have I slipped back into the drama - not sure because I did feel so good with my new life.  Maybe it has to do with residual anger about XN's treatment of me and D having contact with my son has poked that again.
Do I want my good life back - YES
Do I want to focus on my study rather then being engulfed in the N drama - Yes

I am also conscious that it was the wounded abandoned child in her that seduces me.  It seems like I am still attracted to that which signals for me that that part of me needs some nurturing and growing up.  Maybe this is the lesson in this for me.  That I will continue to be attracted to the Ns disguised as wounded children until I heal that need in myself.  Stepping back the interaction with the D is an acting out.  I am looking beneath the drama, the desire for the contact to what I am projecting here.  Seems to me that little axa needs lots of care right now and rather than rescuing XN's D my energy needs to go on rescuing little axa.

I am so grateful that I noted the red flags in my contact with her - a step forward for me.  I am grateful that I was not COMPLETELY seduced by her.  I am grateful that I posted here and have learned another lesson about the depths of my own dysfunction and need.

I feel a lot clearer and would like to continue this thread exploring the issue that has surfaced for me.  How I act out my own need to nurture on another rather than myself - familiar theme but still needs work.

I know I have moved and learned but still only taking baby steps.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Axa

[lighter]

::sigh:: Wow, Axa.

Big thoughts.

I think you're right on target.... wouldn't it be nice to learn a lesson.... and not have to do it the hard way, lol?

That first little line we cross.... or let them cross.... is the road to crossing more lines.

We're just not good at extended boundarie defence yet.

You're practicing and it looks like you're succeeding.

I want to tell you..... you've already mentored this young woman.

She's received the benefit of your wisdom and now it's time for her to find new mentors.

You can't save her from the N or her mother.

You especially can't save her from herself.

All you can save is you and you must be healthy and strong bc you have a son that needs you.

She showed you who she is..... believe her.

Withdraw with love...... give yourself back to you.

It's interesting to see someone turn away from the flame.... and choose more wisely.

I think some of us would have held your hand.... right back into the flames. 

I might have, I can hardly turn my back on injured children..... maybe I can't.

 Not sure yet. 

[axa]

Lighter,

How come you are up at this hour of the morning????????

Thanks, I know it is the right thing and I do not feel angry.  Maybe the anger I have felt towards her has eased in some way from having the contact with her. DUNNO but do know that this is me standing at the cross road - the choices are back down that old destructive road or moving along to the road less travelled.  The latter is without a doubt the more attractive option.  But it is hard, shame I can't learn the lesson once but have to go back to learn it over and over again.  As Anthony de Mello says "We keep going back to suffer until we suffer enough and then we stop going back" - what a wise man he was.

XXXXXXXXXX

Axa