What to do, what to do?????

[Learning]

Hi Bunny,

Thank you for your responses.  A couple of thoughts...

This sounds like typical permissive grandparent behavior.

Yes it does (from what I've heard).  Still it angers me.  It really gets to me when she tells me how to parent because she didn't bother to parent me that much when I needed it.  I feel like she has no business giving me any advice at all.  Right now I am avoiding grandma for this and various other reasons.

I think it's natural that she wants to sit next to her.

Yep, you are right.  I think the reason I wrote it with a sarcastic tone is because whenever she states that she wants to sit by her, I remember something that happened when my oldest was a baby.  Mom was sitting next to my 6 month old baby and she had unbuckled the baby's car seat without knowing it (the 2 buckles were right next to each other).  I found out when I stopped quickly and the car seat lurched forward.  I don't know if you can imagine how I felt as a new mom with my precious child in danger.  Anyways, it just scares me.

I think it's all right when a grandparent or relative is childlike and playful with the kids. I do things with my nieces and nephews that are immature and sometimes subversive. But not to the point where I'm fomenting serious rebellion. I'm still supposed to be a role model.

I also agree with your first statement about being playful and childlike.  My H's sis is the best at this.  She is both of my girls' favorite aunt.  She comes up with the best games, yet she doesn't let them get out of control.  She sets limits.  My mom does not.  

I don't know if I adequately explained what happened that day at the restaurant.  My daughter became a wild child and my husband and I were trying to eat dinner, feed the baby and deal with our wild 3 year old and my mother did not support that effort.  The child needed to be removed from the restaurant because she was disturbing others and my mother was glad to take her for a walk around the hotel.  I wasn't ecstatic with that because mom is so darn easily distracted and sometimes I actually wonder if she would let something happen to my baby just to hurt me.  Again, no solid proof, just...a fear.

As long as I am at it I might as well finish the rest of the story...While they were gone, I took our 1 year old to the room for a diaper change and to nurse her and my husband stayed to pay the bill.  He came back about 1/2 hour later with our 3 year old in tow and no mom.  He told me that he requested that our daughter come back to the room and mom wanted to hang out with her longer and then take her back to the room.  He said "no, I'll take her back now" and my mom went home in a huff.  My husband has been described by many people as being a very mild mannered person.  He is one of the most gentle men I have ever met and he is very respectful of others.  I believe Mom just couldn't handle not getting her way.

Bunny, I am wondering about your use of the term "subversive".  That implies to me that you are undermining the parent's authority to the children.  I am struggling with that...is that what you meant?

I am understanding about relatives being more lenient with my kids.  I am sure that my SIL lets them stay up a little later, or gives them an extra serving of dessert or lets them watch an extra tv show while we are gone.  I totally understand that, heck, I do it sometimes.  Having said that, I really think that allowing them to draw with a marker on a person is not acceptable.  It is allowing her to disrespect another person's body...and a 3 year old has a hard time saying to herself, oh it is ok to draw on grandma but noone else.  No she just decides that it is ok to draw on anyone.  Makes my job much harder.  

Thank you for sharing your reactions to my statements.  It is very helpful because I find myself looking a little deeper at what I am saying and what is really driving my words.  It helps me learn more about me and get to know you a bit more.  

Have a great night!

[Learning]

Hi Seeker!

I love the way you write.  You have such a nice way of saying things and you are always so supportive.  I have to tell you that at the end of my previous thread I found myself afraid of you.  Wierd huh?  It's just that you seem so supportive, knowledgable and caring and I just don't know what to do with that.  I have this feeling that you will find out that I am really a big jerk and then you won't want anything to do with me.  So I pull away.  This is a pattern in my life I think.  

OK I am really tired and now I am just spilling out thoughts.    I hope you don't mind.

One last thing. Just because the Ns in your life haven't committed any crime recently doesn't mean the pattern of behavior has changed. It just means that they haven't had the opportunity. We can forgive the past, but that doesn't mean we have to give erring people more opportunities in the future to hurt us. Snakes are not good or bad, they are snakes, doing what snakes do. A rabbit finds it wise to keep some distance.

Thank you for that reminder.  I am trying to hold on to that.  With my dad, I am getting to be pretty solid with that.  My mom...confusion and doubt still sets in.  I will say that something inside me clicked a couple of months ago when she was trying to make me feel guilty about something.  Now, I really can't stand the thought of speaking with her.  This is new, because I use to seek out her advice even though I knew it was a bad idea.  So I think I am on the right road.  I am looking forward to working with a therapist to further help me.

Take care Seeker!

[Anonymous]

Learning,

Your mother seems inadequate to care for young children. She can't be unsupervised with them. It's up to you whether or not to even give her access to them. She seems like a bad influence and irresponsible.
Your husband is GREAT for removing his daughter from the irresponsible grandmother. Kudos to him.

I don't tell children to go against their parents but if they question their parents' behavior, I don't necessarily side with the parents. I may take the kid's side. For instance, the little girl told me that her father embarrassed her. I said, "Wow, he shouldn't embarrass you." She also said he broke a promise to her. I said, "He should not do that. Go tell him that it upset you." And she did just that. Maybe this isn't subversive, but hey, I think the film Mary Poppins is subversive. I wouldn't let a child write on me with a magic marker.  I let them do other things that their parents would frown on, like jumping on a bed or something.


bunny

[write]

I just read this:

You can not allow anyone abusive to care for your children! I don't care who they are, how they are related and what they will say about it. Abusive people hurt children and there is NO excuse that will ever make it okay. At this terrible point in your family life, I would investigate all my options with every bit of energy I could muster. I'd get the women's shelter to tell me about each and every program that is available for woman in your circumstance and I wouldn't stop looking until I found someone who could help me!!!

You are alone in your recognition of the damage being done to your kids. You are the healthiest person in the group and it falls on your shoulders to find a way to get help. I know this is scary and very hard, but the welfare of your children depends on the actions you take now.

A relative of mine was abusive. During her last visit here she was abusive to our kids a couple times. She has a way of blaming the child and having no tolerance for emotional upsets. As you well know, there are times when kids are weepy or short tempered and it's frustrating but you get through it.

This relative encouraged my son to join her in ridiculing my 5 year old for still having an occasional bottle. They were calling her a "baby" and she was crying. I quickly comforted her and my relative scoffed at me and told me I was encouraging her to remain a baby by coddling her. She told me, "She’s ridiculous!" Well I told her in a calm matter of fact way that a rule in our house is that we don't call names NO MATTER WHAT. She argued against this, of course, so I simply repeated myself. I won't have her teaching my kids to feel ashamed and afraid of who they are because she thinks they should be different from how they are.

I didn't even try to explain that name calling is hurtful and teaches kids nothing constructive. I did explain to my child that when this woman was little people called her names and she never learned that it isn't okay. I wanted to explain it somehow. I guess my point here is that folks who abuse aren't going to change overnight. And, the pain they cause us and our kids is real. Your husband is helping to perpetuate abuse and is abusing both you and the kids by not opening his eyes to what is going on in his home and what he himself says and does. It would be good to start to get resources, information, support.

In this mess someone has to have the welfare of the kids in mind and that someone is YOU!!! There are resources. There must be a way.
from http://www.verbalabuse.com/4c.shtml ( Patricia Evans site )

I'm currently not happy with the way n h is addressing my son & calling it discipline.
The lines I underlined sort-of jumped out at me, I'm getting this too.

[Portia]

Hiya Write,

I'm currently not happy with the way n h is addressing my son & calling it discipline.

Do you want to talk about the specifics? Want some second opinions? …P

[Anonymous]

A relative of mine was abusive. During her last visit here she was abusive to our kids a couple times. She has a way of blaming the child and having no tolerance for emotional upsets. As you well know, there are times when kids are weepy or short tempered and it's frustrating but you get through it.

This relative encouraged my son to join her in ridiculing my 5 year old for still having an occasional bottle. They were calling her a "baby" and she was crying. I quickly comforted her and my relative scoffed at me and told me I was encouraging her to remain a baby by coddling her. She told me, "She’s ridiculous!" Well I told her in a calm matter of fact way that a rule in our house is that we don't call names NO MATTER WHAT. She argued against this, of course, so I simply repeated myself. I won't have her teaching my kids to feel ashamed and afraid of who they are because she thinks they should be different from how they are.

Agreed. I am horrified when an adult tells a child how to feel, how not to feel, calls a child names (including "spoiled"), and rationalizes it by saying it's for the child's own good. I will even take a child aside afterward and say, "Let's run away from ______(name of relative)." I don't care who it is. I don't teach children disrespect, but I will tell them that it's okay to run away from a mean grownup and go to another room.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hey everybody,

It sounds like you are all describing my NSIL to a tee!  She did all those things to my kids: namecalling, shaming, denying feelings of the child, blaming, and not supervising adequately.  I had the feeling that she would allow young children in her "supervision" to run onto the freeway and then blame it on the child for not listening to her or not asking permission first...She got angry with me for not allowing my kids to sleep over at her house when she invited them over and over and over.  She accused another family member of not trusting her and he replied: "That's right! I don't trust you!"

Say Learning, boy, I don't think I've ever inspired fear in anyone before...relax, we all have ugly feelings and we can use this board to get some of it out.  Snakes put that venom in our system and we have to get that poison out sometimes.  I've been having some pretty nasty thoughts about my dad recently and, of course, loads of guilt about it.  It comes with the ACON territory.  

The only thing that is out-of-bounds on this board is directly attacking another member for their feelings or thoughts.  That's it. Also, there are some really great articles on the difference between healthy anger and destructive anger.  I once saw a helpful grid and looked again for it, but now it is lost in cyberland.  It  helped me to know that my anger is OK to feel and I can learn how to express it better.

Take care everyone, Seeker

[Learning]

Hi Write,

Boy it has taken me a long time to respond to your posts, sorry about that.  Thanks for the link about the Ideal Solution belief.  I definetly recognize some of that thinking from my past.  I think I have mostly moved away from this thinking now. Although, one thing I have found in my healing is that it isn't like an on/off switch.  I find myself regressing at times and that used to bother me.  Now I am trying to accept that as well.  I am trying to allow my feelings to have their space, to give them a voice and then to take a look at them.  I love this board because it helps me do that.  I love that it has the added bonus of having others who are detached (and supportive) to give me their feedback.  

Write, I have not read everything you have written on this board, but I have seen bits and pieces.  I think you must be going through a really hard time with your H and all.  I just want to tell you that I am really sorry that you have to experience this.  I also want to say that your courage is inspiring.  Your effort towards protecting your children is wonderful.  I often think what it would have been like to have a mom who worked to change our situation and to protect me and my sisters.  I think my inner belief system and self-esteem would be much healthier.  Your children will have that.  Bless you!!!!!!!!

You can not allow anyone abusive to care for your children!

Well I told her in a calm matter of fact way that a rule in our house is that we don't call names NO MATTER WHAT.

Thank you for that!!  I have been really focused on these two ideas since my children were born.  Lately, I have been feeling insecure about this because I have been given the message from my N parents that I am too rigid.  Actually, both my extended family and my H's extended family love to name call.  AArrghh!!! It is like part of the culture.  Sometimes I feel so isolated in my quest to have my children treated with respect (of course this may just be my perception).  But your post and everyone's responses has refueled me to stand my ground on this.  THANK YOU!

Write, like Portia, I am also interested in hearing what is happening with your H and your son if you feel like sharing it.  

Best Wishes!

[Learning]

Dawning,

I don't know how I missed your post.  I just saw it!  I'm sorry about that.

With self-awareness comes this: feelings do not lie. Trust your feelings. Has anyone else had a rough time of it getting in touch with your physical feelings, say, of dread? I think I got used to mine for a long time - having been taught in childhood that they weren't important. Over the past several months, I am letting them come up and recognizing that they are clues to what is really going on with my thinking about something. I base more of my decisions these days on what my body is telling me. I think intuition and feelings are linked in a really important way. A realization for me.

Dawning, I love that about feelings don't lie.  I don't think I have quite "owned" it yet.  I mentioned to Write that I am trying to give these feelings space to play out anyways.  It is a concious effort.  I have also realized that I have a hard time staying connected to any strong physical feelings.  Strong feelings of dread, anger or joy make me feel very uncomfortable and I want to move away from them.  The other thing I find interesting is that the time I feel most dread is when I am in that stage of half-asleep, just waking up.  I mean not all the time, but sometimes I can feel so disorientated and just filled with dread.  Does that ever happen to you?

Take Care!

[Learning]

Michelle,

I laughed so hard when I read your stories about your mom!!!    I could totally see my mom saying those things.  She is always diagnosing everyone based on her "expert" knowledge.  And I could totally relate to the matter of fact way your mom says things.  It is as if you cannot argue.  It just is the way she says it is.  And why do they always think we will be "happy" when they are suffering?

However, I also feel that some of the things he gives me actually "increases" my capacity to handle things for the future.

He is my only consistent source of stability and strength. In a weird way, my religious beliefs have actually been part of what has kept me "chained" to my family. My counselor is a christian counselor and she has shown me the error of my beliefs in those ways. It has been eye-opening.

Michelle, I also believe that the tests that God gives us are given to develop us spiritually.  I believe that because it makes sense to me and because the great prophets of the world teach it.  And there are times when I really own it within me and I can gather strength from it to do really positive things in my life.  Then there are other times, like now, when my anger overwhelms me (and I guess I feel a little sorry for myself) and I have a hard time connecting to this belief.  That is when it is important to hear people like you reflecting the same belief.  I feel the burden lifting slightly as I write this.  Thanks!

I am glad that your counselor has offered you a different way at looking at religious teachings to apply to the abuse you have suffered.  I have also had people along the way redirect my thinking about spirituality and my understanding of how God expects me to interact with others.  The biggest thing for me has been learning that it is correct to walk away from people who are habitually abusive.  

Thank you for your great support and sharing!   Your positive attitude is infectuous!

Take Care![/quote]

[Learning]

Hey Michelle,

It's me again.  I logged off after writing you the last message and then I felt like maybe I shouldn't have made the comment about your positive attitude.  I am worried that you might think I am putting you into a role.  I just want you to know that, yes, when you feel like being positive it brings light and that yes, whatever you are feeling is valuable and welcomed.

I probably didn't need to say that, but I just wanted you to know what I am really thinking.

Thanks for your patience!

[Anonymous]

Hello everybody,

Portia, thanks!  That's the link!  It really helps me clarify "OK" anger with the destructive stuff that Ns dish out.  One of my Ns calls this being "candid".  right.  Also, there's a fine line between affectionate teasing and hurtful namecalling.  I think it depends on intent, tone and the receiver.  My NSIL called my child a sore loser and was practically yelling it at her, when it was NSIL who was losing and being sore.  Typical.

And Learning, thank you for the kind words, esp. about my writing.  (Sorry I didn't mention that before!) My dream is to become a writer, but I'm still figuring out my niche.  I like your name because I prefer to keep learning vs. posing as a I Already Know Everything type.  So much more fun...

Take care, Seeker

[Michelle]

It's me again. I logged off after writing you the last message and then I felt like maybe I shouldn't have made the comment about your positive attitude. I am worried that you might think I am putting you into a role. I just want you to know that, yes, when you feel like being positive it brings light and that yes, whatever you are feeling is valuable and welcomed. I probably didn't need to say that, but I just wanted you to know what I am really thinking

Learning - You are right.  You didn't need to clarify that at all.  I appreciate your compliment very much.....many people read my personality as fake or put on but it is not.  I am sincerely down to the core a positive person.  I enjoy being that way.  I do admit that I have a hard time letting my anger out in healthy ways but I am working on that.  I feel very proud to have written the letter to my mother on here.  It really opened a new range of emotions for me.  

Don't ever worry about anything you say to me.  You have been very supportive and your intentions are true.  Thank you for that.

Michelle  

[Learning]

Hi Bunny,

"Wow, he shouldn't embarrass you." She also said he broke a promise to her. I said, "He should not do that. Go tell him that it upset you." And she did just that. Maybe this isn't subversive, but hey, I think the film Mary Poppins is subversive.

I would do the same thing.  I guess it is subversive but it is also practising justice.  That's interesting...something to think more about at another time.  I don't remember Mary Poppins too well, but now I think I might have to rent it.  

I will even take a child aside afterward and say, "Let's run away from ______(name of relative)."

I really like that.  I think I might use that when in a similar situation.  It's helpful to the child to have an adult on their side.  I don't know if you say it in front of the adult who said it or not, but if you did it also sends a message to them.

Take Care, Bunny!

[Learning]

Hi Portia!

No, mom did not ask a bit about me in her email.  She rarely does.  Usually, only if she hears a reluctance in my voice to speak to her when she phones.

Yep, all of that. Felt guilty writing (washing dirty linen in public), felt like I was betraying her (the old tape playing), too much thinking about this can make me light-headed (am I going crazy?), is she really an N (who cares? I was abused, that’s for sure and this is about me, not her)….and yes, once I started on this road, there’s no way I could stop, turn off my thoughts and be ‘ignorant’. It’s like turning to the light after years of hiding in the shadows.

I can relate to all of those feelings.  The light-headedness is something that I am feeling quite a bit lately.  I keep telling my H that I feel like I am suspended in time.  I guess you are right, it seems to come from thinking about all this so much.  I am a bit afraid to stop thinking about it because I don't want to forget what I have been trying to accept.  I am trying to hold on to what I am feeling so that when I can get to a therapist, I can share it with them.  

And now I’m reaching the point where I really want to get on with my life and do it my way. Wow! Writing that was quite an achievement in itself!

Portia, that is wonderful!  I can't claim to know everything you have been through, but I know you deserve to live life on your terms.  I hope you will share your experience with us!

No, I originally wanted Cordelia from ‘King Lear’ but it was taken. So Portia from ‘The Merchant of Venice’ because I admire her standing up for justice. My name’s Stephanie but I’ll always be Portia here and funnily enough, she’s my alter-ego too, nudging me to remember my new ‘truth’ when I slip into old ways of thinking. I hope ‘Learning’ does that for you too!

I haven't read 'The Merchant of Venice', but I think I would like to now.  I have also been trying very hard to stand up for justice in the last several years and I am so happy to hear your voice saying that is your goal too.   I don't think "Learning" is as poetic as Portia, but when I joined here that was the only name I could think of that adequately described my state of mind.  I guess I am still trying to find my new 'truth'.  I have had some new truths written onto my heart that I really am satisfied with in the past decade, but I feel that there are several more chapters for me to explore.  And actually I am really excited about that.

Portia, I am very please to meet you!

Take Care,