Loving the Self-Absorbed: How to Create a More Satisfying Relationship with an N

[Ami]

Dear Beth,
 You sound like you are healing more(to me).You sound clearer and more focused. I think that you are coming out of more denial about your M( and F)
   If so====,it is really,really painful. However,it will be for the best,
  I am in the exact same situation. Last night,I had one of the most painful times I have ever had.
   I really saw that my M was 'crazy" and that she wanted me to be crazy ,too.
   When I saw the truth , she totally rejected me--just like that
  The ONLY way that I can have a relationship with her is to speak the SAME language--- craziness.
  That must be why she hates my Aunt so much. My M is so jealous of anyone who has anything "better' than she does.
   Good confidence and self esteem could NEVER be tolerated by her. She would tear it down like a cat fighting for it's life.
  That is why she rejected me so totally. She saw strength and power. She saw self esteem. She went 'ballistic" b/c it was not supposed to be that I ever got well, strong, self loving. How in hell did I ever escape her trap?
  She is in a RAGE against me.
                                                    Love   Ami

[sally]

Good confidence and self esteem could NEVER be tolerated by her.

Ami,
I think this is a big N trait.  In my experience, if an N sees good confidence and self esteem, they will tear it down like a cat fighting for it's life.  And, this hurts all the more when our NMs do this to us, their children.

That is why she rejected me so totally. She saw strength and power. She saw self esteem. She went 'ballistic" b/c it was not supposed to be that I ever got well, strong, self loving.  Sad, but true.  It boggles my mind that NMs do this.  It's like destroying our souls.

love,
sally

[SilverLining]

On the surface, I'm thinking this is an irresponsible book, trying to capitalize off victims of N-abuse who are at that phase where they have become aware of NPD, but wish to cling onto denial because separation is so hard. I remember that phase well, and the last thing I would have needed is an excuse to avoid reclaiming my life.

What do you guys think? I'd love hear some other opinions about this.

It seems to me this sort of book might be of use to some people.  In my situation, I believe both of my parents could be labeled "self absorbed" but neither likely qualifies as having full blown NPD.  So I've tried to keep a sort of "arms length" relationship.  We stay cordial, but I recognize I have to find my real relationships elsewhere.  To go "NC" would create a family wide drama which just fuels the enmeshment.   The book "Children of the self Absorbed" was useful to me.

I do wonder, however, if there is much new content which wasn't in the first book.   It could be a way of cashing in on the topic.

[Ami]

I did not like Children of the Self Absorbed".I loved Vakinins book. Children of the Self Absorbed seemed to leave me with a sense of "Say it already".
  It seemed like it tried to make NPD  s/thing that could be tolerated in some way.
  I read Vaknin after 'Children..."
  Vaknin really hurt,but my feeling is "How can you make NPD "nice'?. NPD is horrible, Being a D of an NPD is like being in a war that never ends .It is as bad as Vaknin says that it is.
  I would rather just say it as it is which Vaknin did (iMO).                          Ami

[Hopalong]

I haven't read the second book, but just in terms of language, one thing I've found important as a distinction (sometimes I forget about it when we refer to "an N"):

an N = shorthand for a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder
an Nish person, or person w/many N traits = a self-absorbed person who has some but not all of the NPD criteria

I can imagine many ongoing relationships with "narcissistic people" -- but not with full-blown NPD people.
The whole thing's on a continuum...and we here are involved, or have been, with different degrees of narcissism. And most often it's our own diagnosis since so few resources peg them any better than we do. (And I have Ntraits too, but don't have NPD.)

I lapse back into referring to my mother as "Nmother" when I should say "Nish mother"...for example. Though most often, I think of her as Nish+.

Hops

[Ami]

There is a HUGE difference between NPD(my M) and Nish (my H.)( I diagnosed them.) However,my M has been in therapy for 30 years and they all got it wrong so....so much for professional diagnosis.    Ami

[Bella_French]

I did not like Children of the Self Absorbed".I loved Vakinins book. Children of the Self Absorbed seemed to leave me with a sense of "Say it already".
  It seemed like it tried to make NPD  s/thing that could be tolerated in some way.
  I read Vaknin after 'Children..."
  Vaknin really hurt,but my feeling is "How can you make NPD "nice'?. NPD is horrible, Being a D of an NPD is like being in a war that never ends .It is as bad as Vaknin says that it is.
  I would rather just say it as it is which Vaknin did (iMO).                          Ami

Thanks for the comparison, Ami; its good to hear your opinion as someone who has read literature from both authors. I've heard a lot of criticism of Vaknin due to his being an NPD sufferer himself, but to be fair I can say that opinions did fit most closely with my own experiences with a wide variety of N's and N'ish people.  I consider his work to be detailed and insightful, empowering, and groundbreaking in terms of co-D type literature.

X Bella

[Bella_French]

I haven't read the second book, but just in terms of language, one thing I've found important as a distinction (sometimes I forget about it when we refer to "an N"):

an N = shorthand for a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder
an Nish person, or person w/many N traits = a self-absorbed person who has some but not all of the NPD criteria

I can imagine many ongoing relationships with "narcissistic people" -- but not with full-blown NPD people.
The whole thing's on a continuum...and we here are involved, or have been, with different degrees of narcissism. And most often it's our own diagnosis since so few resources peg them any better than we do. (And I have Ntraits too, but don't have NPD.)

I lapse back into referring to my mother as "Nmother" when I should say "Nish mother"...for example. Though most often, I think of her as Nish+.

Hops

Dear Hops,

I can understand. I think theres a huge difference between NPD and N'ish traits too.

I also think its comes down to whether or not you actually like the person:)

X bella

[gratitude28]

Bella,
Maybe not even whether you like the person, but whether they are able to have any emotion at all towards anything or anyone, past the thought of "Mine." Are people with NPD sociopaths? Does anyone know if the disorder falls under that heading?
Love, Beth

[gratitude28]

Oh, CB,
I worked for a woman who was that horrible. Reading that book and watching the movie sent me directly back into that situation. I had to leave the job. It was just what I wanted in a job, but she was so cruel. She tried her hardest to "break" me, daily. Everyone feared her, so it wasn't until I was leaving that I was told by many that they couldn't imagine how I could deal with her. In fact, in my life, I have had so many bosses of that type - very cruel, heartless. My last boss was Nish, but kind enough.

I think you are right about there being a scale - impossible to just annoying. As for marriage - even having had a sweet husband, I don't think I would marry again - especially while I had children. I count myself as very lucky that my husband turned out to be the kind of man I thought he was.

Interesting thread, and irksome... it's like having a book that is Co-existing with the Alligator in Your Backyard. Do you remove the alligator (especially if it could attack the kids). If you love animals, do you just feed it and hope to keep it happy? Do you call animal control? Do you shoot it? Do you ignore it and hope it won't bite you too hard?

Love, Beth