Emotional Incest and Boundaries

[tayana]

I first heard the term "emotional incest" in Susan Forward's "Toxic Parents" book.  I've realized over the past couple of years as I've been trying to break away from my family that my relationship with my mother is more like a spousal relationship than a parent/child relationship.  She's even said she's "tried to be my husband."

When I was younger, she told me about problems with her marriage, money and all sorts of other things.  I was taking care of my father and the house at 12, and I wasn't allowed to express any sort of resentment at the treatment.  I tried to do so in a diary, but my mother went through my things and read it.  She didn't speak to me for weeks.

When I've tried to confront her about this issue, she denies that it ever happened, just like she denies so many other things that happened.  She acts less like a parent and more like a jealous spouse.  I think this is why contact with her is so painful.

The bad part of this is, I don't know what are healthy interactions with my own child.  Is asking him which curtains he likes better treating him like a partner?  Is forcing him to make choices on how he spends his allowance unhealthy?  Is it okay to let him vent his anger when I won't let him do something and tell him he can call me mean, but my mind isn't changing?  Is it okay to say, "do you think I'm failure" when I've spent an hour crying for no real reason, but feeling like a failure?  It it okay to give him choices regarding dinner, clothing, school, etc?  Am I fostering unhealthy attitudes if we go to the workout room together, or is that something healthy? 

I don't know what healthy is because I've never seen it.  My mother put us on diets together.  We'd go have make overs at the beauty salon, but instead of it feeling good, it felt sort of twisted.  Oh, it would feel good at the time, but there was a sense of wrongness about the whole thing.

I don't want to continue this cycle.  I want to break it.  I just don't know if I'm succeeding or not.

Here's an article about emotional incest:

http://www.silcom.com/~joy2meu/joy_21.htm

[Ami]

Dear Tayana,
 I know what you mean about that "icky" feeling about your M.I always had it with mine.It just felt"icky" and "wrong",but I never could put a finger on it UNTIL I found the board. THEN, everthing fit,totally.
  I think that with M, God gave us instincts and a conscience. Your mother(or anyone) cannot really take them away. They can get buried,but they are there.
  I raised two good kids using my instincts. Also,if kids know that they are loved by spending time and emotional energy on them,you can make a lot of mistakes and it turns out O.K.
  I think that you have very good instincts. Your MAIN problem is that you don't trust yourself. If I could put all your problems together and make them in to ONE,it would be that you don't trust yourself.
  That is how I see it for myself ,too. I have very good instincts. I need to trust them even when the outside world disagrees.
                       Love   Ami
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Tayana )))))))))))))))))))

[tayana]

Ami,  I'll admit it, I don't trust myself.  I'm afraid if I trust my instincts, I'll turn into my mother.  When I get stressed and anxious, I don't like my behavior, and I fight with myself trying to avoid flying off the handle like my mom.  I don't always succeed, but I try.

I don't know how to trust myself, because it's been pounded into me that my choices are faulty, so I don't know what is healthy and what is abuse.  I don't know what is a good or bad choice.  I don't think I'm very consistent, and I need to be consistent.

[towrite]

Hey Tanaya - I found my best defense against emotional incest has been strong boundaries. I'm not always successful, but I have been able to put some emotional distance between my NM and myself. One of the ways I got better at that was to break free of any rel'ships with those whose behavior was like my NM's. Being by myself has strengthened me and I like it.

In Patrick Carnes' book The Betrayal Bonds he writes about "keeping your zipper on the inside". Like your mother reading your journal, those of us who have survived emotional incest and other abuse learned very early to allow others inside b/c that's how they controlled us and we always did what we were expected to do! They demanded access in order to control us and we, being weak and subservient, gave it to them. Plus we believed we had no other choice. At least that's the way it was for me.

It was only when I began to refuse to talk to my NM about certain things (personal) or refused to argue with my NF about my opinions or other personal issues he loved to demolish with insults, etc., when I began refusing, I began to get some emotional distance.

Hang in there. Baby steps. Give yourself credit.  ((((Tanaya))))

[Ami]

Dear Tayana,
  This is what I am doing. Everyone has that "still small voice'inside of them.It is given to us by God. It is the "Jimminy cricket".We have to separate the other voices from it,though.(like the N mother's voice)
  The inner child exercises help me to do this. We  know WHAT to do way down deep. That is what you have to access s/how.
  I think that you are very smart and insightful. I can "see' it on the board.
  S/how,you have to find the modality that allows you to tap in to it.
  When I was talking to my M ,last night, she was trying to "gaslight" me by telling me that she was apologizing to me WHEN she was ,in fact, blaming me.
   Anyway,I held on to my gut. I said,"I trust myself and THAT is NO apology. I trust that I would know an apology if I heard one." I simply trusted myself.
  Think about what I said, Tayana. You already are smart and "know" how to handle M and other things------down deep. Compost what does not fit.                     Love  Ami

[tayana]

Thank you Shunned, Ami and ToWrite.

Towrite, I'm really working hard on setting boundaries, because growing up I never had any.  I never had privacy.  If I was in the bathroom, my mom was free to barge in.  If I was in my room with the door shut, she barged in.  I'm not speaking to my NM or my father right now, so I'm able to do a little better job maintaining boundaries, but I'd gotten to where I told them very little of what was going on in my life.  I couldn't trust my mother not to butt in.  When I first moved, I mentioned that the phone company hadn't give me a number to call for my voice mail.  So she took it upon herself to call about it, get the access number and the pass code.  About a week later the information about my phone services arrived in the mail.  And I had to change my pass code because I was afraid she'd call and try to get my messages.  So I've learned I can't even mention minor frustrations like poor service with a utility company.

Ami, I try to do the things that feel right and reject the ones that don't.  I try.  I don't often succeed.

Shunned, thank you.  I am trying to teach M some sense of responsiblity because my mom would never allow me to do so when we lived with her.  He's supposed to give his hamster fresh food/water everyday, feed his fish, change the dog's water and keep his room clean for his allowance.  He does reasonably well on the animals, not so good on the room.  The room drives me nuts because he forgets to put anything up, and when I say put it away, I get "just a minute."  We had a little argument yesterday over his room.  We had an argument earlier because he wanted to buy something he hadn't planned on buying, but he also wanted to buy what he planned, and he didn't have enough money.  He can spend his allowance on things, but I often won't buy him toys or something like that.  So he had to choose.  I'd just bought him something the day before.  He didn't like choosing.  He never does because he wants it and he wants it right now.  Eventually though he made a much wiser choice than what he'd originally planned, and he actually bought a handheld game instead of what he'd planned on buying.  A better choice overall.

Actually, he kind of likes the decorating thing.  He picked out curtains, but the store didn't have them in stock.  This weekend, I think we'll get some for his room.  He's really good with colors, in fact.  Its the artist in him, I guess.

I just don't want to end up doing to him what my mom did to me.  I'm so wary about talking about my problems in front of him.  I try not to even talk to my brother or my friends where he can hear because I don't want him listening.  I've had to field questions like, "Why don't you like grandma?"

And I've had to answer something like  . . . "It's not that I don't like grandma, it's just that we don't agree on a lot of things and so we argue a lot."

Or the other night when I had to explain, "Grandma called me and said a lot of mean things that really hurt my feelings."

I was my mother's emotional dumping ground.  I'll never forget the time when I was a teenager and she declared she didn't think she'd ever had an orgasm in front of my father and a bunch of other people.  I was horrified.  Or when I was in school and my parents came up for one of their very rare visits and we went for pizza.  When she couldn't get the waiter's attention, she whistled for him.  I thought I was going to die.  She thought she was so clever too.

[Iphi]

tayana I want to thank you for the great links you have shared over the last few days.  I really liked that fireside blog with the dysfunctional family rules and hope to make it a regular read.  I really recognize the emotional incest too.  I always thought that my dad thought women were just supposed to be there available to make his life easier by doing everything he thought was beneath him, having no problem with that, and always be available to talk about him and listen to him.  Apparently so.

I worry a lot also about being a good parent.  But I had a horribly, mind-blowingly messy room.  You would pass out it you saw it.  However, even I manage much better these days - except last week when I got barfed on and couldn't find a new outfit without pulling all my clothing out of the drawers in a hurry -it did look somewhat reminiscent of my childhood room for a couple of days. 

[Hopalong]

It was only when I began to refuse to talk to my NM about certain things (personal) or refused to argue with my NF about my opinions or other personal issues he loved to demolish with insults, etc., when I began refusing, I began to get some emotional distance.

Yes....for me, the floods of Ntalk, questions/questions/questions intrusive questions used to make me feel sick, dizzy. My brain would slow down. I would feel stupid. Drained. Exhausted. Talktalktalktalktalk. My mother used words like bullets, splashes of cold water, howls for attention, orders, requests, poking, prodding, nagging, criticizing. God, it was exhausting. I literally couldn't think, much less care for myself. She used to call me CONSTANTLY from other rooms, and I followed my Dad's training and obediently went to see what she wanted. I got so I hated the sound of her voice.

I have to admit that her growing dementia feels like a gift. She is mild, relaxed, undemanding. She can't focus enough to carry out a verbal assult any more. She says thank you when I bring her essentials, we have a few pleasantries a day, and that's it.

But that's just been the last year. For seven years before...she was at nearly full power.

Tay...I hope you go free and go far. I can hear how careful you are with M. I know you have boundaries to learn. But how lucky this boy is, that his M is reading about emotional incest, getting therapy, thinking it through.

You are SMART, so smart. What you don't know, you can learn.

love
Hops

[tayana]

Shunned, thanks.  I hope it all pays off.  He has moments where I'm really amazed.

Ihpi, you're welcome.  I liked that fireside link too.

I told my brother last night I'm happy if I can see the floor and the top of M's desk.  Now, Friday NIght he was supposed to clean it, but he got involved in a craft and ended up doing that for three hours.  I told him he could leave it a mess, but it had to get cleaned the next day.  It did, eventually.

Hops, thanks so much.  I'm working on the boundaries, I really am.  I think no contact is actually a blessing, even though I know M wants to see his grandparents.  I think it's a very bad idea.  I'm really trying.  I keep trying different things as far as discipline and such.  I'm trying to use positive reinforcement instead of punishments.  With M, he forgets what he's being punished for.  At school, he'll get in trouble, but he doesn't know what for.  Sometimes I have to use punishment, but I've found losing TV for an hour, or not getting to watch a particular show is more effective than grounding him for a week.

[Bella_French]

Dear Tayana,

Emotional incest, as I understand it,  occurs any time a parent expects their children to `care-take' their feelings. Emotional care-taking can be coerced from children by crying in front of them (expecting their comfort),  sharing details of  conflicts with other adults  (hoping for their support), or by rewarding/ punishing them when they meet or do not meet your emotional needs.

The sad thing about it, really, is that for the parent it usually results in a pseudo-intimacy with the child when they are young, followed by a lot of distance and resentment when they are older from the child. The resentment is so often in response to their parent's constant guilt tripping and other attempts to get get them to continue to care-take them emotionally.

Having said that, Tayana, I think you'll be ok. It might take time to work out the right boundaries with your Son, but I believe you will do it. I think the big problems would only emerge if you never changed or acknowledged the problem. I agree wit hops- you are SO smart and yoru son is so lucky t have a rare mother who would even consider working on this issue.

X bella

[lighter]

Tay... the fact that you're mindful about your parenting..... are questioning your motives and actions, means you're displaying habits of a good parent. 

No one has it all figured out.... this is what everyone does.  Lots to learn and you're learning.

Give yourself a pat on the back, finish that book then buy another couple that look good to you.

I love the postive discipline vs punishment, myself. 

Creating cooperation as opposed to a spirit of opposition is my goal...... may not always accomplishbit but,  I keep it in mind.

[gratitude28]

Wow, Tayana,
You bring up some really good points. My son is at that pre-teen age now and we are trying to figure out our boundaries. I was alone with them for a lot of their childhood while my husband was deployed, so we are very close.
I think as long as you are involving them without requiring them, it is OK. I don't make my kids do things, per se. I do let them see there are consequences when they choose any particular thing - good and bad. I think an NM wants to control EVERYTHING and thus warps that idea of there being a consequence to choice.
What I have mstly done is read parenting books. And I have gone with what I think is right. I ignore my parents' voices when they pop up in my head to contradict what I think is a good idea.
It's funny. When my parents were here this week, I was talking about how slow my son is at getting somethings done and how we often have to keep after him. My dad said, "Let him fail once. That should cure it." It's true - he would be devastated. My mother whined, "Oh, you can't do that. Not to a child." But, the point is she doesn't want what is best - she would be disturbed that he had a failure because it would look bad... plus she was SO fake about it. It was obvious she didn't care but was making a show.
Kids need autonomy, but they need closeness too. I think you know your son well and will be able to determine that just from how the situation feels - or by taking clues from his posture and such.
(((((((((((Tay))))))))))))
Love, Beth

[gratitude28]

I read back through the thread and agree 100% with one thing you said, Tay - you need to be consistent!!! Totally easy, right??? Well, at least mostly consistent...

[Ami]

Dear Tayana,
  This is a small thing in the scheme of things. However,I let the rooms stay messy. We have an upstairs so I did not have to see them. I had a philosophy in my head,"What will it matter 10 years from now?."If s/thing was important like respect  I enforced it..I would not allow ANY   disrespect . They could express anything,but it had to be said respectfully
  I let many things go b/c I did not think they were that important.I ,also, tried to have natural ' consequences' like if they needed clothes and did not help with the laundry, then the clothes would not be ready and they wouldn't have any.
  Natural consequences work better than the M bugging them about things. Just a few thoughts.Compost what does not apply.                            Love  Ami
   

[tayana]

Beth,  I think these preteen years are the worst.  M's starting to get the sassy mouth, and the "i don't have to do what you say" attitude as he tries to assert some independence.  It can be very trying on my nerves, which aren't very good to begin with.  We did homework for two hours last night.  Not because it was hard, but because he didn't want to do it, and kept taking a break between each and every math problem or question.  Oh, I was getting so angry.  There's been several times I've let him go to school with a paper I know is done wrong, but he assures me it's not, so I just let it go.  The next time he's a little more eager to follow directions.

Consistency is SO simple, isn't it?  Then why does it seem so hard?

Lighter, I'm almost finished with the book I'm reading, and I started reading "Trapped in the Mirror."  Very interesting reading, although I disagree with the point that children of N's end up with many N traits.  I think some do, but I think some just get crushed to the point they lose all sense of self.

Bella, I'm going to work hard because the last thing I want is to end up like my mother.  And your comment:

The sad thing about it, really, is that for the parent it usually results in a pseudo-intimacy with the child when they are young, followed by a lot of distance and resentment when they are older from the child. The resentment is so often in response to their parent's constant guilt tripping and other attempts to get get them to continue to care-take them emotionally.

pretty much describes my childhood.