distress and compassion

[wiltay]

Wow, Hops, besides being blunt this morning, you are also being judgmental!  I have not 'demanded' anything from Lise.  She DID seem to take it that way, and so did you, but you are both projecting IMO.  She said a couple of things that I disagreed with and which angered me a bit for the reasons I explained as best as I could.  I thought I gave her a great deal of support and I honestly felt I didn't get it in return.   I also tried to explain my sensitivity to lack of support. You both seemed to miss what I was saying here and that's ok, I can live with it, but I will not apologize for my feelings, Hops, and I certainly do not feel the need to justify them to someone who was not even a party to the conversation.  That's your boundary problem IMO. We are all in recovery here, trying to learn each others boundaries,  and we are bound to have issues with each other sometimes. The path to better understanding is respectful honesty, which is the path that I tried to follow as well as I could.   

Bill

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
  I say this respectfully. If someone is very raw from N abuse,it is very painful when s/one else "minimizes' it by saying 'N's are "people" too (or some version of this)
   Lise is struggling with the "push and pull " of her feelings toward the "church" N and her M. I think that Bill and Lise worked it out very well and  very respectfully. I can see your 'entrance" in to the discussion as a "spark" to ignite a VERY painful topic all over again.
   N's are very confusing to the best of us. Having a close encounter with an N is like being burned in a fire. You hurt. Your body, soul and mind hurts. S/time a "philosophical" discussion on the ''goodness of all people" hurts a raw wound.Also, it is "debatable" whether all people ARE good. That is my opinion.    Ami

[gabbenangel]

 

Bill, Ami and Hops:

I thought I gave her a great deal of support and I honestly felt I didn't get it in return. 

Out of everything that I read the one thing that stands out to be is the line above. Because I think it is true. I think that Bill has reached out to me and been far more understanding than I have had a chance to give back to him. And yet Bill was a big person and only, at first admitted half of that fact, instead he forgave me and I do see his point.

I guess it is like Ami said we are all at different stages of our recovery.

Lise

[wiltay]

Thank you, Lise.  I liked you the moment you 'walked in the door,' and I still feel that way.  I don't want you to feel that you have to be 'careful' about what you say to me.  I don't use anger as a weapon.  If you ever have any issues with me, please let me know.  I realize now that the shortcut to this situation was just to say how I felt right away (not so easy sometimes).  When you have strong feelings they seem so 'obvious' but they aren't to other people at all.  Thank you, Ami.  We should call you "The Negotiator."
Bill

[believe_in_yourself]

:: applauds Bill and Lise ::

To be able to identify your feelings, articulate them, be respectful, and come to a resolution as you've done is commendable, especially considering your (our) background and issues. I'm blown away at how well you've conducted yourselves.

Joy

[gabbenangel]

Hi Bill,

Thanks, I appreciate that you like me when I walked in the door  

Trust me, I won't hold back from speaking my mind.

I'll be honest now...I want to connect with you but I'm not sure how.  Your story is still in pieces to me and I have been so self absorbed that I am missing some things. Is your story posted anywhere here on the board?

The other thing is that you seem to reach out supportively to others and I rarely, since I have been on the board, see you asking for support or reaching out, could  I be wrong?  I hope that this does not get taken the wrong way or that I anger you again but if so then we can just try to work this one out too. (We will get Ami to negotiate). I always wanted to try group therapy

My boss gave me an extension on my deadline until Monday. So what do I do? Procrastinate and goof off although I would not call this goofing off completely. Now I am just taking my time and moving through my work more slowly.

[wiltay]

Lise, I'm supposed to be working too and the mistake is to have my email running and dinging every time someone posts.  I don't know how other people do it but I quickly forget where I've posted unless I check that little x at the bottom to be notified.  Anyway Lise, you missed my story which was posted several moons ago, where I asked for and received a tremendous amount of love and support.  I came in much like you, bruised and battered from something almost inexplicable.   I seem to get most of the support I need now just from the give and take of talking (or just listening) about things of concern to everyone.  It is amazing, but almost every facet of our experience comes up sooner or later.  I think about some issue and then there it is, someone is talking about it. Or something comes up that I have yet to think about.  I have done a fair amount of group therapy and it doesn't compare to the wealth of experience and wisdom that is brought to this board.  I may work on posting to the story board some time but frankly I am sick of talking about 'Randy!'  I take that as a very good sign of progress.  I would have to go back earlier in time, but it doesn't seem like the right time to do it.  Talk to you later, it's back to the spread sheets!

Bill

[gabbenangel]

Dear Gab...I too am dealing w/ the aftermath of a saintly N. When I last saw my NPH, we were sitting in front of our priest, while he was spouting lies about my mental state. Only 1 person from my parish will speak to me now. He's effectively done a smear campaign throughout the church. One of the most disturbing aspects, I've had to face lately, is that saintly N's choose allies that are most forgiving, have a strong sense of guilt & believe in the goodness of others. What better narcissistic supply could there be, than those innocents that fill up church pews? And to have a priest side w/ them...all the better for the N. After all, who'd dispute a priest? For me, one of the things that hurts most, is that my NH not only terrorized my emotions, trust & violated everything good in me, but he really hit me in my spiritual beliefs. A sacred part of me that I never would've believed could be shaken.I feel badly for my priest & parisheners who are but pawns in my NH's game. It's cruel what he's still doing to them. It's frustrating that I can't make them see the Truth. All I can do is pray for them. Know that you are aware & safe now and that God knows what's really happening. Reading your posts has made me feel that I'm not alone in this sordid aspect of N games. The saintly N knows how to push those buttons that strike at our core belief systems. I've found sites that deal w/ only this issue & now know that it's much more prevalent that I orginally thought. You are in my prayers Lise. Peace in Christ, Safe

Hi Safe,

How are you?  Is your strory around anywhere were I can read it?

Thanks for this above. It helps to know that there are others that know about the Church N.

Have a good evening,
Lise

[Hopalong]

Sorry, Lise and Bill, if I made things more difficult.
You guys are doing fine.

Okay if I say something about me?
I think I was triggered by your description of your anger, Bill.
(Chairs flying, etc...)

Aha. I am pretty alert to signs of temper and such.

Maybe it was a very healthy thing for you to explode in the restaurant.
I think it spooked me, though.
So then when you mentioned to Lise that you felt angry with her...

I hopped in.
So to speak.

Hopping out, no offense taken and my apologies for offense given,
Hops

[finding peace]

Well everyone, I’ve decided against my better judgment to speak up here.

Bill, in all honesty, I had the same reaction as Hops when I read what you wrote.

My gut literally clenched when you said “I confess I've become a little angry with you” after having said:  “I am a very violent person now.”

I read that and literally sat back and said “whoa – wow, not good.”

Having been raised in a violent household, your words most likely triggered me.

I didn’t post anything at first, because the thought occurred to me that perhaps your anger arose from hurt.  Not being biased here - just speaking from experience, the males I have known are more likely to refer to anger than hurt. 

Was it hurt at the root of the anger?

Peace

[gabbenangel]

Hi Hops,

I don't think that you have to apologize for making things more difficult...I'm new to this forum but it is an open forum and unless I am missing something we are all supposed to have a "voice." I would say that if someone becomes abusive or hurtful then the board would take steps to eliminate that person? Your comments were just coming from your perspective and from your desire to speak - nothing to apologize for that.

We are are healing here and like someone said we are at different stages.  I liked your input and I appreciated your attempt at support.

Lise

[gabbenangel]

Hi Peace,

That is a good question "is it hurt at the root of the anger?" I know at the root of all of my anger is plently of hurt...I think that Bill did feel hurt and he did attempt to express that.

Perhaps more was read into his story than what was actually there?

Thanks for your comments.
Lise

[Ami]

I am going to respond here b/c I have the' credibility'(unfortunate) of being an abused wife..
  I want to say that I don't think that a fight between two men ,in that situation, was what could be termed "violence".If a man was hitting a weaker woman-- that would be "violence"
 Peace,of course, you would be sensitive to any "images" on expressed anger. I totally understand. I have immense respect for you. 
 I am going to say s/thing very controversial. I think that men in our society have been 'feminized". Men are not allowed to  be "men ,which is different than woman. Men express themselves differently among themselves than with woman(hopefully).If this were a man "pushing a table" against a woman, I would agree(completely)
 I think that the 'pushing of tables " has to been seen in the context of two men and not in the context of violence. That is my opinion.I think that it is really sad that so many men have lost the "ability" to be different than woman.  That is my opinion..                                        Ami

[wiltay]

The problem with email of course is that are no facial clues to go with the words.  I was being facetious about being 'a violent person' because Randy deliberately set me up to appear that way.  Randy set me up and knocked me down like a bowling pin, as the saying goes.  When a male disrespects another guy in front of others, it's literally asking for a fight.  It's the way it works between guys.  I was in fist fights all the time growing up (I didn't start a single one BTW).  Honestly, it's just not that big of a deal between guys.  Punches don't do anyone any real damage and they aren't intended to.  If you've never had male hormones you'll probably never understand this.
   
There are ten years of context here that I can't provide at the moment so this is really not easy for an outsider to understand or for me to explain simply.  What I didn't realize at the time was that he had been talking about me for months to the group at large and his coterie of sycophants about my 'anger problems.' He was laying the background for the ambush.  (He explained away all his angry ex-women friends to me in the same way--they had 'anger issues.") Anyway, I was just ignoring him, not being angry or confrontational, so he needed to provoke me to 'show everybody' and that's just what he did.  I didn't see it coming, but in hindsight I guess I should have.  I didn't hear about my 'anger problems' until afterwards, and then I knew.  Randy is an extremely calculating, clever and talented manipulator, which is why he's an N.
Bill

[Gabben]

Thanks for this Bill.

Randy sounds a lot like Christine...there I said the N saint's name. She is so good at what you described "extremely calculating, clever and talented manipulator."  It just blows me a way...she did a similar thing to me, trying to provoke me to make me look like the angry one, all for the sake of saving her image.  People in my Parrish social circle think that I am the aggressor and she is being distressed by me. I had to leave my Parrish and take a low profile around my circle of connections. Christine has smeared me to others has being " angrily disordered or a Borderline or something." It hurts, I feel like I have been discarded and treated like dirt.

Did you leave your parrish or church? Were you ever able to reveal the truth of what happened to anyone in the group? Did others catch on to what Randy was doing?

Lise