N mothers

[October]

This is quite a sad story, but I think it fits here.  A school friend of mine died a week or so ago, and I am going to the funeral on Wednesday, (as long as I can do it, which is not guaranteed), mainly for the sake of the twin sister of my friend, who has said she would appreciate my being there to support her.  

However, in the course of talking about parents, she told me the following.  Her mother may or may not be an N - I don't know the woman enough to say, but she was certainly supremely selfish when the girls were small, and totally wrapped up in her own needs, to the exclusion of any emotional needs they may have had, or have now, so the signs are there.  I think there are also abusive behaviours hidden away, but neither of my friends would ever talk too much about that.  Anyway, this mother has a sister, who has also lost a daughter to cancer this year.  The mother and this aunt will be at the funeral.

According to my remaining friend, the two women have been comparing notes, and trying to outdo one another in claiming suffering for their daughters.  Each one wants to be the mother of the most suffering daughter, in order to 'win' this particular competition.  The mother has told my friend to be nice to the aunt, because she is 'still grieving', which is a very nice way of minimising the aunt's grief really.

Which is why L needs support at the funeral of her twin sister.

We plan to sit in the garden looking at photographs, which is what L needs to do.

C

[less]

Dear October,

I'm sorry for your loss. Losing a friend is so sad and in your case compounded by these warring mothers.  They really won't be there for the sister of your friend. Too much else going on.  I can see why it's very important for you to go and support the sister.
 
It astounds me that even in the event of death these dynamics are operating. I experienced this 3 weeks ago when a good friend was killed in a car accident. I don't usually tell my mother about events in my life because they tend to stir up jealousy and competition. But  I thought I would explain to her why I would be away for a couple of days. A few days later she called my 24 year old daughter and told her that she didn't really understand what the fuss was about and besides didn't anyone remember that SHE (my mother)  had had cancer!  (uterine, 20 years ago, everthiing fine)

The need for attention seems to be so overwhelming that it overrides the ability to give desperately needed support. It really is a sad story you have told. These mothers could be of great comfort to each other but sadly  haven't found their way there.  Narcississm or whatever related problem this is so emotionally crippling...for everyone. No one wins

I wish you a peaceful time of remembering in the garden.

[Anonymous]

Cathy -- I'm so sorry you lost your friend, and am glad that you are trying to go to the funeral to support her sister. Having a twin sibling die must be an especially difficult experience, and it sounds as though her family will be fighting for dominance at the event, rather than supporting each other.

Just to add another story about Nism and funerals, when my grandfather died quite a few years ago, I wasn't earning much, and in a phone conversation with my mother I asked her if she would help me pay for the plane ticket to go to the funeral (a request I now deeply regret). She said No, she wouldn't. About an hour later she phoned back and said she had changed her mind, and that she would help pay for the ticket after all because she had decided it would be useful to her to have me there.

Needless to say, I wanted to go to mourn my grandfather, not to serve her, so I told her I had changed my mind and I wasn't going. I'm actually glad I didn't, because it would have all been about her. I was happier to remember my grandfather in my own way.

Morgan

[Karin guest]

It seems that the worst of N behaviour really comes to the fore when there is death or sickness.

When my father was diagnosed with liver cancer a few years ago, my brother and I flew over to NZ to give support to him and Mum. While there, my N-MIL (who lives in the same country) rang to say how 'sorry she was' and that when we all come over again for the funeral she'll organise a family reunion for us.

The lack of empathy in these people sticks out a mile in these situations because that's when it is most required. Their behaviour goes beyond any social inadequacies, they just lack that 'milk of human kindness'.

My thoughts are with you Cathy.
Karin

[October]

Well, it is now Tuesday, and the funeral is tomorrow.  I spoke by phone yesterday to the husband and the sister and now I am very unsure what to do.

The husband told me that A left instructions for the funeral, that she did not want to be there.  She did not want people 'staring and gawping' at her, and she did not want to be taken into the Hall (she was a JW).  At first it was going to be curtains in the windows of the hearse for privacy, but now it is going to be that the hearse will be nowhere in sight.  So the funeral is to be held without her.  She is to be taken direct to the crematorium, and noone will see her.  Next, he told me that she was a modest person, and doesn't want too much made of her in the service; no undue praise or dwelling on her; she wants the emphasis to be on the Bible and scripture, and herself to be only mentioned in passing.

Which leaves me feeling very confused, and even more sure than before that A is as invisible and voiceless as many of us, even in her dying.

This funeral is 120 miles away, and I really do not see the point of going to achieve closure, when I will not be able to do so.  There is still L, the sister, who still wants to see me, but ...

So do I go or not.  No idea.

Cathy

[Portia]

Hiya Cathy. What a confusion. The way I see it, your friend is dead. The funeral will be theatre for the Ns, while it should be a group remembering. It’s bound to be awful, it won’t be a good opportunity to remember your friend. So if you go for your friend, you will feel hurt (on behalf of your friend) by others’ attitudes and probably actions. You can grieve for A yourself, privately, perhaps at the time the funeral is taking place? Perhaps do your own thing at home? And tell us what you do, if that will help. If you want, I will be here at the (UK) time tomorrow (if during the day) and you can share your memories with me, if you wish. I don’t think going to this funeral is what you want to do, and I don’t think from what you’ve said it will be any good for you. Whatever A wanted or didn’t want for her funeral doesn’t really matter. If there isn’t any spirit life, she won’t know, she already gone. If there is a spirit life, she’ll possibly be aware of who is grieving for her and who is using the event for themselves. So I guess the best you can do for A is to be true to yourself.

Now, what about L? Were you her friend too or not? She’s presumably asking you to attend out of memory for her sister, but funerals are really for the living, not the dead. So do you want to support L by going, and even if you do go, will you be able to support her? That’s a big commitment and if you aren’t that close to L, there’s a limit to what your presence will bring.

So. What do you feel? The most immediate question is about L isn’t it? If you feel you want to support L (and I hope you don’t feel obliged to because of your friendship with her sister), there are other ways you can do this. You can call her today and tell her you won’t be there, if you decide not to go. If you want to, you could suggest meeting her separately. It might be good for just the two of you to meet and share memories. And so on. But it is not your duty to support L. It would be your choice.

One more word about the death. A died when she died. It was an event that happened. It’s over. The funeral doesn’t change that, it’s an event held at an arbitrary time. If you want to remember and mourn A, in my book it’s better to do it the way you want to, with honesty and meaning. Funerals often don’t achieve this.

Let us know what you decide…..P

PS. Thoughts while making coffee. I don’t want to believe the mother’s attitude. Saying that to her daughter, to be nice to the aunt? Totally denying the idea that the daughter may have her own emotions. Sorry, just got angry about it. And the mother has no emotions (or is in deep grief shock, who knows). But anyway, I thought wouldn’t it be great if you could say to the sister, hey, you don’t have to go to this funeral, let’s do our own thing. And that would be culturally and socially acceptable. Sigh.

[Portia]

Hiya again Cathy. A story for you. I went to a funeral last year which was a real celebration of the deceased. They played his chosen music, talked about his life and, a real corker! – they had a spiritualist make a speech about how the deceased had recently become interested in spiritualism and how he had had a particular dream just before he died. And this was in a Church of England church! The vicar was not happy and made it clear in his reply speech. It was a hoot. Really, just what he would have loved – religious argument at his funeral. He was a man with a cynical sense of humour.   So he was very much ‘there’ in our minds. However my mother was also there and her presence and behaviour totally overshadowed my mourning his death. If I say I was left in a position where I was seated between my father and her boyfriend – who each did not know who the other was – it might give you a flavour of how ridiculous the whole day became.   It was my turning point in realising and admitting about her. So – funerals. The sister L may have her moment of realisation at the funeral, maybe not. But if she does, she’ll need someone to talk to about it, someone who won’t judge but who will understand. And you may want to be someone she can talk to. Maybe not. Just a thought. P

[Anonymous]

Cathy,

My condolences on the death of your school friend.

It doesn't sound like the deceased even wanted a funeral! So don't bother going to it unless you want to attend for yourself and/or to support her sister. At this point it sounds a bit harsh to tell the sister that you won't be there. But if you'd be traumatized, then you have to take care of yourself first.

bunny

[Tokyojim]

Yes, N behaviors can often be seen clearly when there is a death or serious illness.

My N "friend" demonstrated this twice.  When we were teenagers and young adults, my father gave him free medical care and was otherwise kind to him and took us to fun places.  When my father was hospitalized and in his last days, my N "friend" would not visit him because he said sickness makes him depressed.  Needless to say, he would not attend the wake or burial services.  I did not even ask.

When his own uncle died, it was the same thing.  "Funerals make me depressed, and it does not change anything anyway," he said.

[Anonymous]

Still wondering about this.  One minute I am sure I will not go.  The next I am sure I will.  I have consulted two friends today - apart from your good selves, that is - who both say I should not go, because it will not be what I need, and that I am too unwell, which is another aspect that I have tried to ignore.  I always think, if I try hard enough, I can do it, and pay for it afterwards.  

My main reason for going would be for L.  She told me that she does not want to go, but thinks that if she doesn't, she will offend the husband and daughter of her sister.  Which is not really a good enough reason, except that because I knew it would be hard for her, I said I would do my very best to be there for her.  A and L were both good friends of mine at school; Anne was closest, but both were good friends.  We were all prefects together - the goody two shoes of the school!!!

So, Linda is going so as not to offend the family.  I am going to support L.  Madness.  We should neither of us be there.  And you are right about this being a gathering of Ns, and lots of ego stuff.  I am getting my suspicions about the husband as well.  Some of the things he says about himself - in fact most of what he says is about himself.  So if I go I am playing the supply game by another route.

Twilight zone music as I feel myself surrounded by these creatures!!!

Stay at home time, I suspect.  I'll let you know.  Thanks everyone for your support.  I have read all the stories and they are horrific - just like my mother - she uses every funeral she goes to as a re-enactment of her grief for her parents, collapsing in anyone's arms who happens to be around - you have to make sure to stand away from her - and saying to everyone there in effect, 'you may think you are grieving but just look at me!!!  Nearly forty years on and still as bad as the day they died!!!!!  Nobody loves like I do.'  (Which is right!!!)

 
Cathy

[Anonymous]

Yes, N behaviors can often be seen clearly when there is a death or serious illness.

My N "friend" demonstrated this twice.  Needless to say, he would not attend the wake or burial services.  I did not even ask.

When his own uncle died, it was the same thing.  "Funerals make me depressed, and it does not change anything anyway," he said.

It sounds as if this person does not believe in death, and thinks that if he doesn't look at it, it will go away.  Funerals do change something.  They allow us to let go of people we love, and commit them to God's care, if we happen to believe in such a thing.  They are an important part of life.  It is disrespectful to just sweep a person under the carpet as if they were never there in the first place, imo.


Cathy

[Tokyojim]

Cathy,

Very insightful!

My N "friend" very, very frequently talks about old age and death.  He tries to frighten me about it.  For example, saying that when we hit our 70s, how horrible and ugly we will look.  And that we have already lived at least 70% of our lives and the years are passing faster.  Whenever I say ANYTHING optimistic or positive, like I notice many elderly people finding peace, or that can be a time of freedom and reflection, he says that I am in denial and that he has accepted the fact that we will soon become impotent, disfigured and scoffed at by most of society.

These ideas themselves do not depress or affect me in the slightest.  What I find offensive is his purpose and his attitude.

[Anonymous]

Tokyojim,

This guy sounds like massive creep with few redeeming qualities that don't compensate for the bad qualities. How can you stand him for even 30 seconds?

bunny

[mighty mouse]

Yeah Tokyojim,

I would like to know what Bunny asked as well? Not trying to gang up on you....but very curious.

MM

[Tokyojim]

Bunny and MM,

I do not feel as though you are "ganging up" on me at all.  On the contrary, I thank you for your interest.

There are many people who post here, so I do not expect anyone to remember one I posted almost 2 months ago that answers your questions (April 13).

I will just cut, paste and edit:

I have an N “friend” of 40 years, since high school.

I have wondered why I continued to maintain the friendship. It was fine from a distance – an occasional phone call and a brief meeting when I was in town. However, whenever the contact became more frequent, it soon becomes tedious, and I become frustrated or very angry. I cannot rely on him, I am embarrassed to introduce him to my real friends, and he has enraged me a number of times. I had pretty good parents, have no inclination toward codependency, was married a very stable woman, etc. So why did I maintain this “friendship?”

I reflected on this when it became unbearable and finally realized the terrible reasons. First, his energy and fantasies can be interesting in very small doses. However, much more than that, the disease was infectious! He had put the poison in my mind that I was really better than everyone else. How easy life becomes with that! Whenever there was some normal conflict and stress, I could retreat to my kingdom where I am superior to my surroundings, above it all. I have had a farily normal life – a marriage to a good woman, job success, and a couple of stable kids who are now grown. A couple of years ago, I went through a divorce, moved to a new town, and started a new job. I was alone and shaky, and the N went for the jugular. I got re-infected with the idea that I was superior to everyone and above it all, so the people around me were not worth any effort. How easy! I felt something was wrong. It was probably like a drug. There is a temporary good feeling, but one knows that one’s soul and humanity are being destroyed. I cut off the N supply two months ago. Naturally, he stopped contacting me. The result is amazing! I am enjoying people in the community, seeing their humanity, and they are contacting me.

I am writing this because I may have a different point of view. Most people here seem to have been intimately involved as a spouse or a child of an N. I became an infected person who absorbed the disease to some degree. So far, my healthy part won out, but the N thinking had to be fought before it destroyed me. Under its brief spell, I was incapable of love and friendship, and was becoming isolated. Of course, I still worry because some remains.