May "the board" be with you

[mighty mouse]

Ah My Canadian friend!!!

Pleased to meet an INFP such as yourself. Actually we abstract thinkers are usually attracted to one another.

Since my NPD sister is an INFP, I queried the board about that type being Ns. I thought maybe it had something to do with the sensitive nature. But I got a few replies that indicated Ns could probably be any type. All this time I had it in my head that my sister was the way she was because of her personality type......not a personality disorder! That's my only linkage and not very scientific of course.

Another site I went on mentioned they thought the extraverted types were more prone to be Ns, but I don't think so. People tend to confuse introversion as being interested in ideas and not people. But I think Keirsey got it right that it's actually the abstract thinkers that are that way regardless of being extroverted or introverted. I know many ISTJs and they are not necessarily inward looking people. But I do find them very nice. My H is ISTJ. And he keeps me from being so lawless. We NT types aren't known for following rules unless they make sense to us.

Although my Mom was an N to everyone, she did seem to favor me. Maybe because I didn't talk much as a kid (I was busy with my own little world) and I didn't talk back much. What she didn't know was what was in my head. The INTJ will pretty much not say anything to people who are irrational or don't make sense. We just store it in our little heads and don't take the person very seriously. I remember specific instances when my Mom said something pretty lame "you kids are just trying to bug me" -I just thought she was irrational.

But I am a very competent person and played a peacemaker role in the family (that should have been an NF role I think). The INTJs don't like fighting and emotional messiness (my parents fought a whole lot). And we like privacy as well. That family wore me out and messed up my world as we were always in a state of chaos. Even a calm rational can only take so much! We have feelings too....

I should have said we don't feel rejection acutely as much as know we are likely to be rejected (not really true for me anymore). I think rationals are about 5-6 % of the populace and people (except for the idealists) don't really dig us much.

I'm so excited to meet a really nice INFP. I wonder if your type had anything to do with why the beauty queen picked you to dump her Nness on? Have you wondered about this?

MM

[mighty mouse]

Les(s),

You're not nipping the wine THIS afternoon are ya LOL? Just in a loosy, goosy mood? Good on ya mate.

MM

[Less]

Nope -but I considered moving the 5 o'clock rule back a few hours today. Soooo, I believe you mentioned that you are uncannily intuitive about people sometimes! Ahem! Spoooky. Convinced me. I was just being a bit of a "wag" as they say in Auz. Sometimes I manage to get the editor off my shoulder and then I DO feel like I've had a wee nip.

 Now I'm going to go find a web site and bone up on personality types. Good question about N and dumping.  I feel I was so sealed up as a child that I sometimes wonder if I might have been much more vibrant and outgoing with different parenting -well I guess the answer is yes - perhaps a whole different set of letters.  You went from shy and quiet to, well, to feisty!   I was the last born and most resembled my mother physically-  feeding the emeshment problem I guess -To this day I get the feeling that she doesn't know that I am a separate individual. I guess as long as I know it...

"We just store it in our heads and don't take it very seriously" - god Iwish I'd known that not taking it seriously was an option.  And yet she still made you crazy.

I'm also going to look at Amazon and order up some books -I've been noting what books other people mention. Any favourites? The language is so powerful. "N supply" you said. I feel so liberated when there is a name for these behaviours and ways of thinking. Les(s)

[mighty mouse]

"We just store it in our heads and don't take it very seriously" - god Iwish I'd known that not taking it seriously was an option. And yet she still made you crazy.

In a word..yes. My thoughts weren't validated by anyone. Even when you know something on a rational level....you are still dealing with a parent. So you question yourself. And Ns are so crazymaking, they have a store of ammunition you can never match. And then there is the emotional component of needing love and approval.

I'm also going to look at Amazon and order up some books -I've been noting what books other people mention. Any favourites? The language is so powerful. "N supply" you said. I feel so liberated when there is a name for these behaviours and ways of thinking. Les(s)

For personality typing I like the book "Please Understand Me" by David Kiersey (not sure of the spelling of his name but that's close). And a book that Dr. Grossman recommended to me is "The Narcissistic Family" by the Pressmans (husband and wife team). There are other books as well. But I liked these two a lot.

And to answer another question, I do sleep between 2:00 am and about 9:00 or 10:00 am CST. I'm not so mighty I can go without my Zzzzs LOL.

MM

[Less]

S'cuse the probing MM and just tell me to back off but are you close to any of your sibs? Do you talk about your childhood with any of them? I think everyone in my family just buried themselves as deep as they could but now as older adults surprising, validating things are being said. Less

[mighty mouse]

Les(s),

I was going to ask you the same thing...about the siblings.

Actually my oldest sister who still lives near my Mom and is a very dear person has talked to me about my Mom. She knows I'm not buying the party line about our family being perfect and is proud of me for declaring my independence. My next oldest sister has had a problem with my Mom for years and just sort of minimizes contact. My third oldest sister has called my Mom on her guilt tripping and has always mantained quite a distant relationship....she doesn't visit much.

The next oldest, who is my brother is now my Mom's main Nsupply. He used to tell his (now ex)wife that my Mom didn't love him. But he has done a 180 now that he's divorced (my Mom is happy about the divorce and has nothing good to say about the ex wife). He visits her often and they seem like two peas in a pod. My brother BTW is someone who I've never card for much as he is overbearing and a jerk. He doesn't acknowledge people and did some really destructive things when he divorced my SIL. He had an affair and was never home, he stuck her with the kids on food stamps while he got his MD. And then after he became a doctor, all of a sudden he's too good for the wife, and now my Mom's prouder than ever........! What, you say?

Then there's me...you sort of know my story in a small way. Then there's my next younger brother. He's a nice man. But he's got some problems wanting to be everyone's knight or what I call a rescue ranger. Then there's my younger sister who has full blown NPD. Then there is the youngest. He was pretty spoiled growing up, but he seems to be managing well.

I don't talk with these people on a regular basis mind you. Just every once in a while. My Mom was good at keeping chasms going between one or the other of us for a long time. We are not close but I have enough information that they have suffered as well. My third oldest sister is also an alcoholic although a highly functioning and intelligent one. She burned out in college after trying to dance as fast as she could (over achiever big time). In fact we are all pretty much that way....needing approval that's a moving target is a hard way to come up. But now that my brother is an MD, he seems to have hit the magic button finally. Even my NPD sister who is a PHD couldn't hit the button. I guess being an MD is more prestigous than a PHD is (according to my Mom anyway).

My NPD sister (after getting published but not attaining a professorial postion like she wanted) has told my Mom that maybe she will be the one to cure cancer (grandisoity). She doesn't work in onocology so I'm not sure what that business is all about. But she's the next best Nsupply for my Mom since she's single (as you know, you're not much good if your main attention goes to your own family). Also my sister is willing to do my Mom's dirty work (see my post on triangulation).

You mentioned that your Mom wouldn't dare insult your sibs like she does you. But I wondered why they bolted (escaped as you mentioned in another post). If you don't mind elucidating, I would be interested to know.

BTW how was your visit (assuming you had one this week)? And if you did, was the board called upon again?

MM

[mighty mouse]

Forgot to metion that my NPD sister and I used to be "close" until about 4 years ago.

I starting getting the fact that our conversations were very one sided and then I would tell my husband about the outrageous stuff she would tell me.....what happened is I started getting healthier and she was in the same place. After a while I started seeing a big difference in our world views and she seemed like an alien.

My second and third oldest sis were tight at one time but have split ways and everyone else is okay with one another. Just not close.

MM

[Less]

Well I'm going to have to learn how to use the quote option so I can comment more effectively. Hooray for your oldest sister. So glad she is supportive. What a huge thing that is to have an older sister that is proud of you. And your next 2 older sisters seem to have the picture too.

Well, well, my- son- the -doctor - what is it about mothers and their doctor sons. Also a sadly familiar story about the doctor who leaves the wife and kids when he's launched - on food stamps even, really awful. I hope your SIL is managing now.  So you are the fifth. Da, da dada - little musical joke.  Then Rescue Ranger - sounds like he carries quite a load,  your NDP sister [so MD trumps PHD- is NDP sister aware of this?] and the youngest. Got it! No wonder you are interested in personality types. You've got the full gamit in your family.

Read your triangulation post - ahhh so that's what's been happening to me over the years.  Major wedges driven in.  

About 2 years ago around the time I lost my voice I bloody nearly lost my mind.  My older sister came to visit and something about my state - opened her up. She is usually very distant and crisp, very defended, very guarded. But she listened and listened to me and didn't tell me I was exaggerating, just listened and acknowledged that much of what I was saying was true for her too and the bits she didn't get (sexual abuse) she didn't dismiss.  We didn't know about N's. It makes everything so much clearer. Because my F was an alcoholic and M "very heavy drinker?" maybe we thought that was it. Her listening was a real turning point for me.  So slowly we let out bits of the story.  Recently she told me that she had to send her boyfriends away when she was young because our M would go after them all. THis was my experience too - NM was an indiscriminate sexual predator of sorts.( perhaps I've said this already)

 So the stories are coming out - too bad we couldn't help each other at the time but kids just don't have enough life knowledge to manage it usually. MY brother too (at 64) is beginning to think about it all. -sort of  "What the..!Did she really do/say that?  His specialty is telling hair raising stories about our father (dead) at Christmas. Remember the time when....(the younger generation is suitably shocked!)  But my sister and I are not close. I hope somehow to be more supportive of her in the future -she is pretty tightly sealed up and 3000 miles away.

YEs, went shopping today.  I'm not sure what to think but I know I am stronger since "coming to the board." I'm verbally more in control and just generally more detached without being cruel. It is the position I have been searching for. I also maintained a safe physical space for myself today without being too rejecting. Did the hug thing and so forth but was very clear with my body language what was no longer ok.  I thought she'd make a big fuss but I think she knows exactly what she has been doing and just needed me to draw the line. So slow So slow!!  But getting there.
...I think this degree of honesty just roots you in yourself.  I am so grateful to Dr. Grossman for setting up the board.  Thanks! And thanks for listening MM (and anyone esle who made it this far!) Less

[mighty mouse]

Hi Les(s),

We seem to have our own little thread going here.  

Anyway, several things you mentioned in past posts made me think. You mentioned your INFP status. You do know that you are a rather elite group being such a small percentage of the population? Of course I am too with my INTJ status. Beleive me, there are times when I wish I was different. But I don't know how much that has to do with the actual type or the NMom quotient. I tend to think with even a bit of real attention, I would have flourished with my type. But it's tough being INTJ and female. I used to always hang with the guys in school because I related to them better.  I needed a lot of things I just never got and didn't have naturally (it would have helped if ANYONE was paying attention). But being in a such a small percentage group of the entire population is hard especially with the more concrete types (I've had to become more concrete as I've gotten older, what about you?).

As far as you being vibrant, why my goodness!!!!!!!You seem vibrant to me, especially the way you write. Remember, you are a swan among ducks....as David Kiersey says. He is a rational married for over 50 years to his idealist. What type is your H if you don't mind me asking?

Yes, I am interested in personality typing. Probably because I was so much different than others and I didn't understand why. I always knew I was extremely independent even though I wasn't very social. And I was never a big talker. I cut myself one time from a knife in the dishwasher and I didn't say much even though I had a big gash. My Mom got extremely upset with me for being what she called "so closed mouth". What she didn't understand was that I didn't even see the big gash and was concentrating on the smaller one below it which did hurt some (the big one didn't hurt). Got out of gym class though . To this day I will be at times a cauldron of emotions and nobody can see. They think I'm calm and collected. And at times I think I've said something when I actually haven't but meant to. Weird type, man!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like you, I wish that my sibs and I talked more about our experiences. It's sort of like a house where one or all of  the kids are being sexually abused and none of the others know about it. It's almost an unspoken thing that you aren't supposed to say anything. And then there is the manipulation by the parents. Your Mom trying to usurp you and your sister's dates is chilling.

You mentioned that you are now more verbally in control. I can be that way in writing to my Mom. But I can't be that way on the phone since she's gets sooooo defensive at the drop of a hat. But I've become much more verbally in control with others since I've cut off contact. I am also much more free to express joy and laughter. It got on my Mom's nerves if we laughed or giggled too much when I was at home. I'm not sure what that was all about.

Do you remember that book "The Greatest Generation"? I wish I could meet some of the great people of that era. I know they probably exist. But the ones I know seem to be a pretty self congradulatory lot. Have you met any of these "great" people? Or are you just a low down "boomer" like myself? LOL. I don't know if "boomers" is a term used in Canada.

MM

[Rojo]

Hi, Mighty Mouse

I sure wish I hadn't been off this board for so long as your posts have just hit me right between the eyeballs.  As evidenced from my "WTF" posts today, today has been a total calamity and reading this thread has been a real lifeline.

I'm a female INTJ and dear God do I ever relate to your comments about your childhood.  It's one thing to read about the personality types but you've really drawn the connections between the data and how it applies to real life - particularly an ACON's real life.  We are very rare and I totally with why things are especially difficult for us.  We are an anomaly in most people's eyes and it's no wonder my Nmother has an especially morbid contempt for me.

Oh well, just wanted to let you know how much I appreciated reading ya.  One of you was talking about a drink.  lol...I think I could use two right now!  Really stiff ones at that!

God bless

Rojo

[mighty mouse]

Les(s),

An addendum to my third to last post...about the author David Keirsey (I kept spelling his name wrong. And the book I mentioned is actually "Please Understand Me II". He had a first book, but the second is more comprehensive.

MM

[mighty mouse]

Rojo,

God bless America (and nobody else) - just being silly using a quote from a Chris Rock movie. But cheese and rice......I've never met another INTJ anywhere!!!!

It is hard being an INTJ and female. Thanks for the validation.

So nice to know another one of us exists. Actually I was reading some posts from last year and another person mentioned they were an INTJ as well. I think there are a lot of INFPs on this board also. It would be interesting to know what percentage of this board consists of the "abstract thinkers" - rationals and idealists. We seem to get on very well. Maybe that's why this board is so attractive to me. Other boards are so not intelligent. I find the people on this board to be very articulate and have a lot of valuable insights as well.

Thanks. And luck with your artistic pursuits. I myself like to express my creativity with interior design/decorating. Weird maybe for an INTJ. But as the literature says we can excell at anything that takes our interest.

BTW I don't like crowds either. And I am a very private person and like a lot of alone time. Lots of it. We can extravert in our own way and one way is through this board. I'm a lot chattier here than most places. I don't think there's anything wrong with you at all not liking the crowds....yuck.
Saps the life out of me. If you are like me, we have a very few special people that we get on with and any more than that are just too many.

I hope to talk with you more later.

MM