Dr. Grossman

[lighter]

I am saying this for myself only. I made a vow after reading  the  Milgrim experiment that I would NOT be one of the MAJORITY  that shocked the man to death.
  If I were in Nazi Germany,I would have wanted to have been one of the FEW  that stood up. No one knows what they would actually do in these cases. What about Kitty Genovese? slavery? lynchings?
   Ami

I'd like to voice a complaint about being referred to as a Nazi and a Murderer.... a Shark.... as in mindless killing machine.

I don't think that's fair and I think that type of hysteria is partly responsible for the escalation in conflict, though it's been accepted here like it's appropriate and rational by everybody but Hops, I think. 

I agree with Ami.... I just don't agree with who's getting shocked and who's the angry mob.

Why is it acceptable to label people those things and not OK to say something, that I actually consider quite on target, however unsavory or wickedly scripted?

I take responsibility for having been wicked.  ::holding up hands:: 

I apologize and admit that I was frustrated and unable to do better at the time, or I would have. 

I'd like to move beyond the frustration and talk about solutions.

Dr. G... just bc I don't fall over and yelp loudly..... that doesn't mean those references aren't innapropriate. 

I think they very much are and this is one of many recent references only.

I honestly don't think I'm a Murdering Nazi Shark or that this board is filled with a mob that moves with that mind.

::shaking head:: Just so wrong.

[CB123]

I don't think that's fair and I think that type of hysteria is partly responsible for the escalation in conflict, though it's been accepted here like it's appropriate and rational by everybody but Hops, I think. 

Lighter, I dont accept that it's appropriate and rational.  It's not. 

But it is revealing and I am hoping by staying out of the conflict, those kind of statements stand in bold relief and do not get lost in my inadequate response.  I guess it goes back to what I said earlier:  I don't really think I can say enough to convince someone otherwise if they really think that is an appropriate comment. 

I'm so sorry, Lighter.  I know that hurt.

CB

[JanetLG]

Hi Ami,

 I think I see much more clearly now. The following is said with peaceful intent.

I agree it is very important to stand for yourself.  Very important.

The following is my opinion only:  

I believe, that in standing tall for ourselves, it is extremely important we are careful to watch were we stand, so as not to step on the feet of others and cause them pain.

There are a lot of people learning to stand for themselves here, including me.

There will be times, as we are learning to stand tall for ourselves that we will step on other’s feet.  When this happens, it is very important to step back and realize that they are learning to stand tall for themselves as well.  It is also important that we acknowledge the pain we have caused – not by saying I didn’t mean it that way, you are not seeing it right, but by saying I am sorry.  I did not mean to hurt your toes.  

I also believe, that we be careful that in standing tall for ourselves, we don't use others as props to help us stand, as that defeats the purpose.  And, if you inadvertently step on someone’s toes, the person who is propping you up, is also likely to get hurt as everyone falls down.

Much love to you,
Peace

Peace, That was a very clear post, with a very sensible message - thank you.


Janet

[Leah]

Dear Ami,

It is possible to stand up today against slavery, which is still happening worldwide, and many many other injustices, in all countries around the globe, including the ones in which we live.


Effective standing up is all about standing up with a voice of dignity and poise, integrity and honor, to a captive audience.

Love, Leah


PS   Yes, Peace, a most sensible message indeed, thank you, truly appreciated.

[Ami]

((((((((((((((Teartracks))))))))))))))))

[Hopalong]

Doc G has said that he will shut down any thread that restarts the previous conflict.

I think most of us've been trying on this thread to discuss better communication, possible solutions, in the abstract. So we can make the board a better experience going forward.

So, in fact, it's not all about one person or even one past conflict.

Going backward to reignite the original specific conflict would be gaslighting, and a waste of everyone's time and trust, imo.

Hops

[gratitude28]

tt,
You put it in a nutshell. We have conflict around us all the time. We can choose whether or not to engage. I choose not to
Love, Beth

[changing]

It is a good policy to avoid conflict whenever possible. However, I also make it my policy to absent myself from groups where elites treat non-elites unfairly through their connection with the power structure. If Jews , blacks, women or others are excluded by virtue of their difference, I won't join in and will vehemtly voice my objection, and see if the rule of law can be brought to bear on the situation. If the poor or someone unconnected to those in charge get a raw deal in a certain system or group due to the machinations of an unprincipled person who is intimate with the controlling power, I may be moved to enter the fray, and then leave, doing whatever I can to expose the evil there. This a moral imperative for me.

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Lighter,

First of all, thanks for stepping back from the fray and engaging in self reflection and self questioning.  That takes a lot of courage—particularly doing it in public.  I hope you (and everyone) will forgive me if I speak generally.

I think what we often see on the board are mini-battles for the survival of the self.  (The triggers have varied over the years)   Most on this board have the experience of losing such battles repeatedly to narcissistic parents, spouses, or other family members.  In fact we have lost so many battles that we can’t stand to lose another one--which makes it near impossible to walk away.

But some people can, and ultimately do walk away.  Genetics/biology play a role, but these people typically have found someone who is able to enter the attachment part of the brain and re-wire so that the self doesn’t feel perpetually threatened.  Sometimes this person is a teacher, a clergy member, a grandparent, and aunt or uncle, but most often in adulthood the re-wiring is done by an excellent therapist.  In therapy it’s done not through insight, nor through advice, nor through an exploration of the unconscious (although all of these may happen in excellent therapy), rather, it’s done through a very special relationship with a therapist over a considerable period of time. 

Someone has to be with us internally as we negotiate the world—otherwise the self is under constant attack, and much of life is spent trying to bolster or defend it. 

I wish there were some easier solution.  But I don’t know of any. 

I hope this helps.

Best,

Richard

[reallyME]

As Dr G said:

But some people can, and ultimately do walk away.  Genetics/biology play a role, but these people typically have found someone who is able to enter the attachment part of the brain and re-wire so that the self doesn’t feel perpetually threatened.  Sometimes this person is a teacher, a clergy member, a grandparent, and aunt or uncle, but most often in adulthood the re-wiring is done by an excellent therapist. 

I am one who has learned to walk away when I've come to a point that the conversation becomes unfruitful in any way.  Genetically, I'm wired to "argue" like my biological mother.

I was also one who found someone able to enter the attachment part of my brain and the impulsive part (temporal lobes) and re-wire so my self doesn't feel perpetually threatened.  In short, I'm able to say "I let you OWN your decision, behavior, issues and I own mine.

The first thing that entered my brain was a drug called TOPOMAX.  I was on this for 9 months, and when I came off it and other anti-depressants, I was a new person.  The impulsiveness that drove me to quit jobs, leave churches, ditch people, was GONE!  The next thing I credit the "brain-fixing" with, would be my relationship with my spiritual mom, Nancy.  Finally, I credit above all the others, my relationship with God and the faith that I have learned to stand/walk in.

Point being, I will only engage in conflict to a point, because I no longer have a NEED to prove myself right and you wrong.  I am comfortable in my own skin and comfortable letting you have your own skin...no need for me to enmesh with you or clone you.  I can just eventually let you "be."

~Laura

[Ami]

((((((((((((Laura)))))))))))))                   Ami

[gratitude28]

((((((((((((((Laura))))))))))))

[Leah]

((((((( Laura )))))))

with sincere respect and admiration.

Love, Leah

[lighter]

Dr. Grossman..... tt..... CB... maybe some others.... I am not, for one small moment, trying to figure out HOW to fix, change or otherwise rewire a person struggling for survival.  My aspirations aren't so lofty, alas, lol.

I don't want to change anyone....

hmmm....

or do I?

::stepping back::  

I guess that's not true.

I want to change the way we(general) respond to injured people.... esp the destructive ones that gaslight, scapegoat and impact our lives negatively bc we CAN't go NC with them.  

My sister arrives this evening, btw.... in case anything goes all hysterical and mistakenly believes I only have thoughts for her@@  

And I don't for a minute consider that we can go NC with anyone on this board.... I think you're foolin yourself if you think that's true.

They interact with others..... that impacts every ONE of us, whether we pretend it does or not.

Intimately blowing into someone's ear.... whispers in private.....   Grooming. Cultivating.  Flattering...... appreciating...... validating souls that never enjoyed the warm glow of acceptance and adoration before finding it here.  

From where I'm standing, it's predatory but I can't be sure exactly what the angles are.... I'm a relatively newcome to the game.

That little whispered puff of wind creates ripples......  

The ripples fan out and become larger.

By the time I'm pointing out small swells......

I'm creating waves

So...... the small whispers aren;t perceived as the problem..... the waves and the wavemaker are.

If the lessons on this board are to learn how to let the chaos flow THROUGH US.... and not involve our serenity, then I have to throw a red flag on the field.

I'm not interested in learning how to ensure the comfort and serenity of the gaslighters..... bc the group's comfort and serenity depends on my silence.  I don't like being held hostage.  I have a belly full of that in 3-D, thanks.  ::burp::




Addressing CB's post as follows:  Probably just repeating myself so sorry in advance.

I don't think that's fair and I think that type of hysteria is partly responsible for the escalation in conflict, though it's been accepted here like it's appropriate and rational by everybody but Hops, I think.  

Lighter, I dont accept that it's appropriate and rational.  It's not.  

But it is revealing and I am hoping by staying out of the conflict, those kind of statements stand in bold relief and do not get lost in my inadequate response.  I guess it goes back to what I said earlier:  I don't really think I can say enough to convince someone otherwise if they really think that is an appropriate comment.  

I'm so sorry, Lighter.  I know that hurt.

CB

[/b][/i]





I guess you've just made my point, CB.  

If my responses are inadequate and only serve to muddy the waters......

then I want to learn to respond in a way that isn't inadequate.  

I think there must be some comfort in remaining silent...... replaying old FOO issues  over and over and expecting a differnent result, perhaps?

I don't know but..... I'm pretty sure I won't ever find serenity in stifling my voice bc I'm being held hostage.

I can say it's given me tremendous insights into the mechanics of drug addiction and alcoholism.  

If I had to accept that as my fate.... I would imagine I'd be drawn to those types of coping strategies just to get through my day.

::singing::

"Is that all there is?

If thats all there is, my friends, then lets keep dancing

Lets break out the booze and have a ball

If thats all there is"

I have to draw a parallel here between Lupita's situation with the old principal at her school and any chronic troubles on this board or in our 3-D lives for that matter.

Is it right that Lupita stand and take the innapropriate covert abuse silently?  If not.... why is it appropriate for anyone on this board?

That's what her struggle's been about..... I see that very clearly.  She's having a hard time explaining the abuse, finding her voice and doing something about it in a constructive manner that doesn't cause her to look even more like the troublemaker than she's already being portrayed as.

She needn't waste her time asking why.... and I assure you, I don't waste time asking that useless question either.  

I'm good with accepting it and not trying to make sense of it... please don't confuse my struggle to come up with appropriate responses with trying to figure out why anyone does what they do or attempt to change them.

I feel like Dr. Grossman provided more of a WHY and still left me without anything useful with regard to a reasonable response.

I keep going back to dealing with craziness with a lighthearted pointed plainspoken honesty that captures the heart of the matter.

I'd like to go on record, once again, I'm outraged and appalled that accusations of Nazi like bahvior and lynch mob mentality have been leveled here and gone unnotices and allowed to continue.

If speaking the truth is removed from the board, bc it's pointed and abrasive...... then what the heck is going on with the outright name calling and inflammatory statements that are truly contentless and serve only to whip emotions up and garner idiot sympathy?

I have no idea if I'm going to be thrown off the board for this post, patted on the back or ignored, lol.  

Topsy Turvy is how I'd describe my board experience right now.  ::burp::

[Leah]

(((((((( Lighter ))))))))))

with respect and admiration for your courage to * speak * and * share *

So...... the small whispers aren't perceived as the problem..... the waves and the wavemaker are.

Remember dear Lighter, the story of the emperor's new clothes and the kid that no one liked -- at that point in time.

Truly, that's how it is in life more often than not, but you know what ?  Those people knew deep down inside, as they did then
at that point become to  * see *  what was in front of them at that time, which is why they turned against the kid.

But that kid grew up, and I discern that that kid grew up with his/her courage and strength, to be.

Love, Leah