Careers and work

[mighty mouse]

Hi Les and Seeker,

Les, I too can't seem to get the quote thing to work. As it is I needed help from my H to even get the edit options and bold to work.

From you and others on the board it seems that quite a few of these Ns like word/crossword games and such. My NMom is big on Scrabble, Boggle, etc..I wonder if this has any great meaning? Oh well...I hope her response to you about the crossword didn't discourage you from it.

ESL...English as a second language? Forgive my pea brain. From what I've read teaching is actually a good profession for INFPs...teaching children especially. I would think it's mighty difficult without a voice though. Is that getting any better?

Seeker, my Mom is book stupid and people stupid.....she liked to parrot this saying of my Dad's because she knew my sister and I were big readers. Hey no matter that my sister is a PHD (unfortuantely she also has NPD). What a load of crapola that line is. I'm not especially people smart but at least I have empathy and compassion. That puts me ahead of her by a mile. You too have those qualities as is evident in your posts.

Bag the business suit. There are different personality styles for different reasons. There are none better than another. I bet these naysayers enjoy their entertainment (artists, all). And maybe they don't read books but need to. I think my Mom could do with a little reading to expand her world. Then maybe she wouldn't be so narrowminded and critical.

Getting back to Les, I thought the visual of me in a red cape sitting in a posh living room was a hoot. I've got the living room. Now all I need is cape! BTW I own an old car and don't buy new clothes or shoes hardly ever to feed my creativity. Otherwise I couldn't afford it.  And I think I will check out the book you recommended. Thanks, you INFP sweetie.  And when your Mom calls you F. Brain again...just remember that my moniker is Garlic breath....LOL. Maybe that will trigger laughter and she'll wonder why. Good luck going into the vortex this week.

MM

[Anonymous]

Hi you guys,

thanks (!!!) for considering compassion and empathy to be people smartness.  I guess Ns would consider it stupid to be able to think about other people instead of only ourselves    .  When I say people stupid I mean politics, which is knowing what I want and how to get it out of other people.  Also how to protect myself against bullying and vicious gossip.  I just check out.  As Linus says in Peanuts: "I love mankind, it's people I can't stand."  He had the NLucy as a sister.  

Les, the crossword puzzle exchange reminded me so much of my NSIL.  If you like something, she would find a way to burst your bubble with just such a comment as your mother made.  

Thanks for the kind words.  I really needed them today.  Seeker

[sjkravill]

Hi all,
Is this conversation still going on?  I have been a little out of the loop.

In reading this thread, I noticed how lots are describing themselves as underachievers.  I never would have guessed that about any of you.  You are all people who I consider wise, articulate, and whose honesty I admire on this board.  There is reallly soemthing to be said for being reflective and intentionally learning or at least pursuing how to repair our own broken selves and our relationships.  I know people who don't give such things a second thought. The messages our parents give us really stick, though, don't they?  If we are never good enough for them, it's hard to evaluate ourselves positively.

That said, I am there with you.  Some people probably think I am an overachiever.  I think I have them fooled!  I actually don't see myself as extremely capeable or free-thinking.  I know the discouraging sting of, undercutting comments from parents well enough too.  

I am on the beginning of a career path, and I am wondering if it is the right one for me.  I wonder what I want, and what I can do.  I have questions about the motivation and the wisdom in my choices...  I would love to keep hearing from you all on this subject.  I can write more later too, if I get brave.  

Peace, sjkravill

[les]

Do write more Sjkravill!  Would really like to hear what's on your mind, what careers you are thinking about. It's great to "flesh out" people - get a sense of people here..  Only recently have I begun to divulge anything about myself - always a listener - but I feel positively "showy" on this board, strutting around, telling people who I am! So go ahead, strut a little.

As a guide I refer to being your " authentic self." Not easy I guess to sort out but if we keep our hearts open to what we like,  allow ourselves to breathe, relax, enjoy rather than being the artificial person we had to be... it's one step closer to aligning our careers with our true natures. I confess, it's Friday night and I've had some wine (can you tell MM,) so please excuse all babbling, errors and so forth) I wonder if we need a new acronym PEATMO. Please excuse anything that might offend! We are pretty careful here and I love the respect and care people show. in communicating.

Ok MM you're in trouble! None of that pea brain stuff -and as I typed ESL I thought it would be considerate of me to say what it was but forgot to do it. I live in Toronto -considered the most multicultural city in the world (that sounded like bragging, didn't mean it. PEATMO LOL!) But you are right. -English as a Second Language - it seems that every second person teaches ESL because Immigration is absolutely huge here. Voice is getting better and I do believe in part to the expressing and learning that is happening hear/here. I'm reading Narcissism -A. Lowen right now and he has a case study about a woman who "couldn't get any emotional sound out of her throat. Her throat was closed off." Holy moly -

Well enough about me, let's talk about ...me. - ahhh, the old N joke.

Just realized my quote from the last post didn't include the point - which was to say that our Western culture - by putting such a high value on money, money, high powered business, is in Lowen's estimation sick and Narsicisstic- a round about way of extending my support to you Seeker in taking the road less travelled in your family. Hooray to that!  What road are you on. Care to elaborate? Or perhaps you have in other posts and I'm not up to speed.

So MM -do you get the summer off? I am almost done and can't wait to putter around the garden, ride my bike and watch the afternnon sun. - I loved that iimage in one of your posts.

Les

[les]

Claris - you started this thread and yet I'm not really sure you've said what you wanted to say. Still there? Want to talk about some of your career issues?  I think we would all like to hear more.

 You remind me of stories my adult Chinese students tell me about schooling and pressure in China. In fact some of them came to Canada to try to minimize the pressure on their children a bit.

What a trap your mother set. Good to hear you are beginning to open up the leg hold and taking a step.

Les

[Ishana]

Hi everyone!  I've been reading posts for a while and even posted a couple of times so you might remember me.  

I wanted to respond to this post because I believe my childhood has significantly affected me in the area of education / career.

First of all, let me say that I am very lucky because my biological mother raised me until I was almost 7 years old, when she passed away from cancer (she was 28 years old.)  It wasn't until a few months later that my father married my stepmother who, it turns out, is N.

So from my mother I gained a sense of positive self-worth and the sense that I could acheive whatever I wanted.  

From my stepmother I learned it was dangerous (severe beatings)    if I excelled or did too badly.  If I did too well it meant she wasn't the "goddess" of EVERYTHING so that was deadly.  If I did too badly then she couldn't brag on what a wonderful parent she was so that was dangerous too.

So now I have this dichotomy within...I feel I CAN achieve and I go so far...but then I hold myself back from meeting my full potential.

Does anyone else have this dynamic from their N childhood?

Ishana

[mighty mouse]

Sjkravill,

My full time job is now reflecting and repairing my broken self as you say. The problem is it doesn't pay well LOL. Not in monetary terms, but in emotional and esteem terms it's paying handsomely.

Les,

Just realized my quote from the last post didn't include the point - which was to say that our Western culture - by putting such a high value on money, money, high powered business, is in Lowen's estimation sick and Narsicisstic

I think this is true. Instead of being satisfied with a job that has dignity, we are all looking for high powered careers. It's now gotten to the point that our president thinks that we should let illegal aliens (I hate that term - it sounds so impersonal) in to the country to do the jobs we Americans don't want to do. When did it become bad to do just simple work that you get paid for. BTW I haven't formulated a political opinion on the above illegal alien question. Since I live in Texas, we have a large number of Mexican workers and they are extremely hard working, so I just don't know.  

I think some of the question of if we are or are not under acheivers stems from the thinking we got from Nparents. I actually am part owner of a travel agency and service my own clients from home, but I still don't feel successful. And I've travelled all over the world. So I either need a realignment in thinking as you mentioned, or I need to align my interests with a career. Easier said than done of course.

And Seeker, I've always had a deadly fear of drawing attention to myself but that's starting to change. I'm not sure how much that has to do with the Nquotient or my personality type.

In the meantime, I'm still searching and watching the afternoon sunlight. And I bicycle with my H in the daytime when it's not too hot. And I'm reading "Anna Karenina" with Opie's book club. It's those darn feminists that said we had to do it all. Let's blame them LOL.

MM

[mighty mouse]

Ishana, Didn't mean to leave you out. Goodness.

So now I have this dichotomy within...I feel I CAN achieve and I go so far...but then I hold myself back from meeting my full potential

Very elegantly and succintly put.

MM

[sjkravill]

Hey all!
I don't know if this topic is still of interest.  I have wanted to post, but it has taken me at least a week to work up the courage to talk about this... Isn't that funny?  Why should careers and work be threatening?!  I have also been trying to process my thoughts...  So, if you still want to listen, I think I may finally be ready to talk.  Try as I might, I still may not be very articulate or organized!  Here it goes...
OK, ready? Promise not to stone me?

All of my life I have felt "called" to ministry.  I grew up with church as the one place that seemed to accept me and encourage me.
Now I am 22.  I have graduated from college, and in the fall am headed, as most everyone expected, to seminary....
But now, I have all of these questions!!!

NOTE: If you are a very traditional Christian, I am NOT trying to offend!!! It might be wise not to read on if you are a fundamentalist.  Please don't respond with intolerance!

 Now, I know the church.  I know it has literally burried the history of women and the value in women.   It pretty much excludes gay and lesbian people, it is So patriarchial and traditional...  I am way to radical for this!  I am not strong enough to be radical in a traditional setting.

 The local church can be a wonderful place, but it, probably like most organizations, is can be mean, and aflicted...  It is very political, there are always money problems, and always people who want to control.   I don't know if I want to spend my life in this work.  I don't know if I have the endurence!

I also know more than a few pastors who have major boundary issues themselves.  I wonder if this career draws people who have such aflictions.  I wonder if I have such issues.  My hunch is that I struggle with authority, and with setting limits.  I would never want to hurt anyone or create dependancy.  I would not want to do this work if it were about my need to be loved.

I know that spiritually, I have more questions and fewer answers each day.  How can I help others with the theology of suffering, how can I help others to define God?  I can scarce deal with my own spiritual issues.

Part of me wants to work in Urban settings.  I am with children in urban ministry this summer.  I love it, and it is hard, exhausting work.  There is not much money, and lots of marginal people...

Another issue, is that I am interested in so many different things.  I am interested in academics, I am interested in Social Work, I am interested in feminism, in counseling...  I am actually currently planning on a dual degree in Social Work and Divinity.  Why am I doinng this?  Am I trying to be an over achiever?  Do I just want more options?  Am I going to overwhelm myself?  

I am fighting the idea that I have to be married to a single career.  Yet, I have a hard time not feeling like I am speeding down a road without any brakes. If not this, than what?  I don't really know how to go about career discernment.

  The issues my parents contribute are similar to y'alls.  A sense of deep inadequacy, fear of making mistakes, fear that I will never pick something that will be a happy choice, fear of being judged harshly...
Indecision... A constant nagging critical inner voice, that I have to intentionally try to quiet.  

Well, I guess that's all I have to say for now on that subject...thanks for waiting for me.  Thank's for letting me vent my anxiety!
Peace, sjkravill

[nassim]

Hi Sjkravill,

I know this probably won't help much, but I don't think too many people know if a career is right for them before the fact. In other words, you might not really know until you are "in it". You may indeed find that the ministry is not for you. But that doesn't mean you will have failed, or that you should be judged harshly. Of course, as is usually the case, you will be harder on yourself than anyone else.

Fortunately for you, you are only 22. Most of us on this board are way beyond having the luxury of even being in your conundrum. After establishing a family, it's pretty hard to even think about what you want to do, it's more of a question of what you need to do.

As far as questioning the patriarchal attitudes of Christianity, I think you are wise to question. That IMO makes you better spiritually if not an ideal church leader. And it seems that a lot of church leaders are more interested in the political and financial aspects of church than the actual spirituality. So you may find that another avenue is better for you.

I think it's important to just forge ahead. You will makes mistakes. You may not be able to narrow down a career. But I feel sure that since you are already so aware, you probably have a better chance than most. And in the forging, new, perhaps never thought of avenues may open to you. But taking action is better than worrying and certainly better than not doing it at all.

Foist yourself on the world without apology young blood!

Nassim

[nassim]

That IMO makes you better spiritually if not an ideal church leader

I meant a traditional church leader. Maybe you will be a non traditional church leader if you find the right setting.

Nassim