Called my mom's bluff

[Iphi]

It's a cogent point Hermes.  It occurs to me that maybe stepping back and asking 'what is a win?' would help here and any other time we deal with our Ns. 

For OC, what would a win be, in this situation?  What would a 'win' look like?

[Hermes]

Hello Iphi:

Unfortunately, there is no "win".  The N-situation is a no win one. You might as well go out and talk to a rock as try any type of discourse with an N-individual. 
And equally unfortunately all one is doing by sticking around the N is to "enable" them by providing supply.  All reaction is supply to them.  You can drive yourself mad trying to be reasonable. 

I am sure Overcomer knows, in her heart of hearts,  herself, what the only win situation is, and only she can take that road. 
All the best
Hermes

[Iphi]

I think that looking for a negotiation or agreement with an N is a no-win. Looking for something mutual is a no-win. 

But I think OC can still have a win, depending on what that win would look like.   For example, OC could define a win as having her mom put up X amount of money for the reception and insist on getting the $ up front and only after getting the money her mom may be allowed a limited amount of input and opinions on what the reception should be like.  Or, OC could define a win as throwing a loving, enjoyable, fun reception within her own budget and without any contribution from her mom. 

Doing what you are going to do for your own reasons - that's a win!

[Certain Hope]

((((((((Kelly))))))))   What do you and the newlyweds want for this celebration?
Bigger is definitely not always better 
I think that as you clarify those hearts' desires, all of the rest will fall into place.

Love to you,
Carolyn

[Hermes]

You are a sweet person Iphi.! LOL

Imagine trying to limit the N to anything, less so input LOL.  Sorry, I do not mean to laugh.  The N person will no his or her level best to sabotage anything that is going on.

I entirely agree that OC could throw a lovely fun reception without any contribution from the M.  Indifference, now that the Ns do hate.  That I did discover.

I thought too, in my foolishness, that I could "win" with N-spouse.  I tried it all: facing him down, laying it out before him, laying down the law, not laying down the law (all for my own reasons, mind, being that I would have liked to salvage my then home), even raging back at him, even doing my own thing.  It was all the same.  I did not "win" in that situation.  But, I am winning now, and have been winning since the N-situation is well behind me.

I know, I know, there are financial considerations, and I do not like to pry.,  Maybe OC is constrained by those considerations.  I just don't know.  Sometimes you have to simply cut your losses.   

All the best
Hermes

[axa]

Hermes,

I tried being hard, I tried being soft, I tried being angry, I tried being kind............... every word I spoke was a waste of breath.  I left, I won.

axa

[Lupita]

OC, she is a controller and she will control as long as she can.

I am so sorry for you. It took me 50 years to accept that my mother would never baby sit for me, nor help me in anyway.

[Overcomer]

Well it is her way or the highway.  The older she gets the more stubborn and her own sister says she is fighting to keep her edge-she KNOWS she is losing it.  I think she would rather flush our business down the toilet rather than allow me to take over and make it successful.  I will NEVER be enough for her-NEVER!  I PITY HER-I DO BECAUSE SHE IS NOT GOING OUT ON TOP-she will embarrass herself.

[Ami]

Dear Kelly,
  The hardest thing with an N M is learning to love ourselves. We have to undo ALL the conditioning and see our own beauty---a daunting task. I am on the road with you---one slow step at a time.                  Love   Ami


((((((((((Kelly)))))))))))

[Overcomer]

I found a network marketing company that is owned by a man I know from my industry.  I am the first person in Iowa to do it.  I tried Arbonne and was pretty successful but never got to that freedom stage.  My goal is to be so successful that I do not have to worry about my moms crazy making antics.  I do not need our business for my living.  That way I will not care if she stop the business into the ground-it will not affect me.  So I am frustrated enough that I will not be stoppable!

[Gaining Strength]

Overcomer - what do you think about what Iphi and Hermes and I have said?

[CB123]

Kelly,

What about this? 

Be sure to plan something like this with a budget firmly in place.  Dont EVER approach your mom with a project where you are already panicky about the outcome.  (And by the way, Kell, you might sit down and get very still and see why you planned this without a budget.  Did you, on some level, purposely sabotage yourself in your conversation with her?  Don't laugh--it happens.  A lot.)

Then you can go to your mom and say: Mom, I have planned a very simple gathering for D and H.  I think it will be lovely and understated and will really touch them.  It occurred to me that you might like to do something special and I wondered if you would like to do X.  You can do that as big or as little as you like (dancing--the band, lights, etc?  Whatever.)

Then leave the outcome to her and practice being relaxed about it. 

OR!!!!! Plan what you want to do within your own budget, and tell her thank you so much, but you dont need anything.  If she has a chunk of change she wants to spend, ask her to buy something big for the new couple.  Whatever she wants.  She can even ASK THEM WHAT THEY NEED.  Novel thought.

The common denominator in both scenarios, Kell, is that you have already planned carefully what you will do without her help.  Then you will be able to enforce a boundary--if you don't have one, you can't enforce it.  When you go to your mom, already upset and without funds, you are (on an unconscious level) begging her to dance with you in the same old dance.  And, of course, she accepts the invitation.  You are both locked into the same roles (you are frazzled and overdrawn, she is powerful and available with cash).  If you don't like the dance, you need to stop asking her to join you.

It will mean that you are going to face discomfort on a different level, however, and it may be an enlightening experience for you to face that discomfort head on.  There is some level on which you are angry with your mother for her power over you, but you are willing to put up with her powerplays in order to get what you think you need--money for your house or your daughter's events or paying off your bills.  The problem is there is a price tag to her money and there always will be.  You don't get to decide whether or not she applies the price tag--but you can sure decide to not buy the merchandise.

Smaller house, credit card payment plan, simple wedding reception for D.  Those may be harder to swallow than you think.  But facing that is where you are going to see some TREMENDOUS growth.  I want that for you, in the worst way.

Love,
CB

[Overcomer]

I totally relate.  I agree that there is nothing I can do to change this woman.  The only thing I can do is change the way I respond to her.  And to answer Izzys question-I have made several false starts to get away from my mom but am sorta stuck because I cannot find a job that pays me like our business.  It is frustrating because it is like a trap.  I am a bit passive aggressive in that I just do not do much as punishment for her refusing to leave.  I have lost my will to fight.

[Lupita]

OC, I just was thinking that your mother will have to retire sooner or later. Maybe just need pacttince. I dont know. My mom opened a little very little store of refreshments and little snaks, gum, ciagrretes, and magazines. It is not big but it keep them alive. I begged my mother to let me in. She did not want to. She opened it with her husband. Her husband has a job in the family and I have to work oustised with strangers all the time. My sister works with them.
So, I was thinking, if she is aloowing you to be there, maybe it is not so bad. I understan that it is frustrating, but I dont know, it is not good to tell a person to leave. The person has to decide, and come fron his her heart and not people to tell you to leave.
Of course, many people will think that she did me a favor but not allowing me. I am in the USA and am free of her, or so I think, because free I will never bee.

[Hermes]

Overcomer says:  "It is frustrating because it is like a trap".

Dear Overcomer:

It is a trap.  However, no one can tell you to leave, and no one can tell you to stay.  Only you can know in your heart of hearts what is worth doing and what isn't. 
If life were merely a question of money it would be simple enough. 
I will just make one remark: "it is once around the block".  We have only one life, (which is flying past at the speed of light L), and the past half hour has already gone......
It has to boil down to what we really want. 

We cannot be "free" of past memories, not entirely, but we can keep them in their place, in the past. 

Lupita says your mother will have to retire sooner or later.  Sure, she will.  But how "later".  Months, years, maybe a decade?  Precious years of your life, merely waiting.   

I just don't know, Overcomer.  You say you have lost your will to fight.  Well, fighting will not solve anything.  Nor will changing the way you respond to her.  As you have said, no matter how you "respond" to the N, it makes not a whit of difference. 

Again, it is your life, and only you can decide.  There is one point you mentioned in another post, that your M would fail in the business (I think it was about someone else opening a similar type of business).  The Ns generally do fail and tend to drag others down with them.  It is also good to remember that.

Take care and all the best
Hermes