What bait does your N use?

[gardener]

Flower         Please keep a notebook of all of the bag of tricks and write it out.. It's almost like a  Children's tale already, (the ones meant to chill). You have such a clever way of putting things into word-pictures.  Do you ever write anything for publication? This could be a good start. Develop it!

[les]

Thanks for your comments Flower - sometimes I think I've extracted myself from this sticky soup, this sick relationship and for the most part I think I have...I've learned to stand my ground and take care of my sanity. Strange how doing that is so natural for some people and not even in the picture for others. Oh, you need my soul? -sure no problem, just a sec and I'll extract it for you.  I feel like I was "spare parts" for my mother.

It feels selfish of me to go on about all this - I think I should have figured it out by now but since this is a forum to get it out and bare/bear witness to others struggling to do the same..I will push on.

Flower - you raised the question of what you would "owe" someone who felt "love" awaken because of you. God, what a murky swamp it is.  I finally really get that it isn't/wasn/t love at all - it's some twisted, distorted emmeshment thing that I still can't fully grasp.  I believe that my mother (big yuck approaching) 'fell in love' with me. Her jealousy over the years has been over the top. Her vendictiveness -just like a raging rejected lover. (MM if you read this and I have been over this before, please excuse my repetitive self - I do seem to be going round and round in circles!) There must be a book that deals with N mothers and these other twisted elements. Anybody know which one might deal with mothers consuming their children and calling it love?

Singer - yes, I'm not surprised that your relationships with your brother and sister are the way they are. Mine as well. That big "borg" mother Flower referred to needed everything to flow through her.

Ah me,  there is a way out I'm sure but so many tunnels to crawl through today. Merci

Les

[mighty mouse]

My dearest Les,

(MM if you read this and I have been over this before, please excuse my repetitive self - I do seem to be going round and round in circles!)  

No need to excuse you my sweet!! Why do you suppose you need excusing? I find your posts very heartfelt and have never thought you go round and round.

What's it like in the belly of the beauty queen whale? I think we have all felt swallowed to certain degrees by Nparents.

BTW my NMom contacted me by email today. I wonder if I should respond or not? I guess if I do, it will be short. But then she says my short replies "hurt" her. So maybe no reply. In any case I'm not  feeling much about it....no gnashing of the teeth so to speak. It's just information which I have to make a decision about.

MM

[Singer]

.

It feels selfish of me to go on about all this - I think I should have figured it out by now but since this is a forum to get it out and bare/bear witness to others struggling to do the same..I will push on.

I hope you do. It would be ironic if on a forum for voicelessness one would be faulted for expressing their thoughts. Although I know what you mean. Sometimes I think, "Oh Lord, there I go again!" and cringe inside when I see my name on a post.

God, what a murky swamp it is.  I finally really get that it isn't/wasn/t love at all - it's some twisted, distorted emmeshment thing that I still can't fully grasp...

... sometimes I think I've extracted myself from this sticky soup, this sick relationship and for the most part I think I have...I've learned to stand my ground and take care of my sanity. Strange how doing that is so natural for some people and not even in the picture for others. Oh, you need my soul? -sure no problem, just a sec and I'll extract it for you.  I feel like I was "spare parts" for my mother

Reading this made me feel almost ill. It describes so well how I've felt so many times, except I didn't realize what it was. Like nothing belonged to me, neither body nor soul. Makes me sick.

Given that, it might sound funny but thanks for putting it into words.

Singer

[les]

...well pushing right along then!...thanks for the affirmation and support everyone.  Hi MM! good to hear from you as well. As one of my first contacts I always feel a little more grounded when I see you've been around!

I am reading "Loving What Is" at the moment.  There is much to learn here and even the title is helpful, I repeat it like a mantra. I won't try to describe the process here but reading the book at the very least has made me wonder how much I HANG ON to my angry feelings and to what extent I can let them go. I guess none of us wants to shlep this big load of anger and hurt around forever... but I think someone mentioned that identifying, validating and venting it all has to come before there is any chance of truly releasing it.  

I guess forgiveness and reconciliation are on my "TO DO" list because I have to see my mother at least once a week.  So understanding all the N stuff  allows me to breathe and stay grounded.  I can see that she was a victim and I am tired of being her victim. So I am trying to find it in me to be a little understanding, a little compassionate.  Ok, big moment of honesty. I LIKE my anger. I like knowing that i was WRONGED.  It gives me a sense that I am actually a person and actually alive and separate from her with my own feelings and thoughts.  It is so much healthier than comatose girl, mute woman. But it isn't the end or at least it doesn't HAVE to be the end ... I believe it might be possible to push beyond this - I think of the Truth and Reconciliation hearings in South Africa. But then I think well, both sides had to try to speak the truth and own their part in it all.

So as I write this I am thinkng about the e-mail MM. Is there a small window of opportunity to move even a step or two in well....a different direction?...can't say I am advocating it because I know we are all at different stages in this journey. Ok out on a limb here. What do you think would happen if you wrote your mom a newsy e-mail? Does it feel like you will just providing her with more target practise.  Don't mind me - a little projection going on here. I have to call my mother today and I really don't want to! I guess Bunny always says it succinctly. Do what is right for you.  Does any part of you want more contact with Mother?  

Flower, Singer sorry for the nausea inducing descriptions! But damn it's good to call a spade a spade -eh?

As far as seeing your names on the board, Flower, Singer and all- Lets all allow ourselves this one indulgence - to express ourselves when we need to. I guess there is an infinite supply of space out here, you aren't taking anyone else's place, and only those who want to read will. Hey maybe I'll get cracking and be bold enough to put up a new post!!

Les

[mighty mouse]

Hi Les,

I guess Bunny always says it succinctly. Do what is right for you. Does any part of you want more contact with Mother?

Bunny is a wise woman. But to answer your question. No. I don't feel that she has earned the right to any personal information and yes, she would use it against me in the future. And the funny thing is, I don't miss her. I used to miss what I would have liked her and needed her to be, but I don't even go there anymore. If I had my way, I would not ever speak to her again. I don't feel like I'm missing anything. I never had it to begin with and I've accepted that.

I have been on this journey of discovery for more than 10 years now. And I've already written out but not posted at least a half of a novel (letters to her). And of course I've been through the same things as most of the other posters in various stages. I am very resolute at this point.

I see your INFP personality coming out in that you are a "healer" type. I'm more like Hermione in the Harry Potter books and you are the boy wizard LOL.  You are much nicer than I am.

Well that's the long answer to your short question. And I like seeing you on the board as well.

MM

[gardener]

Hi flower, your bag of tricks had me thinking back and I wondered if you'd also experienced the Blame-thrower  (no blame shall be attached to the N so it gets thrown around at someone else)  and the Joy-swatter (every small winged bit of joy that creeps its way in gets flattened, unless it can be self-attributed to the N) . I'd been mulling these over for a while. Anyone else think of others?  

[gardener]

Perhaps we could come up with a bag of remedies and a suit of armour for everybody else? How about the shield of blank looks (not reacting emotionally to the hook and line) or the instant mirror, repeating what the person in question has said and asking them to clarify exactly what they mean?

I'm currently experiencing the revelation of the telescope of insight.... you ask the person in question how they perceive someone who is of the same 'type'. It can be so revealing, remembering that the way we perceive others depends a lot on how we accept and perceive ourselves.

Rather like 'Judge and you too will be judged'

Or.... We do not see things as they are, but as we are. I think this last one is a quote from the Talmud?

[Singer]

Whoops, got lost in thought for awhile.  

Been thinking about this, among other things,

Ok out on a limb here. What do you think would happen if you wrote your mom a newsy e-mail? Does it feel like you will just providing her with more target practise.

Yes. But sometimes I do call even though I know now that I do it to fill a need of my own. Part of me won’t let go of the fantasy that we can communicate. So I make the call knowing full well that anything I say can and will be held against me. And twisted and repeated as fact.

Plus there’s the sense of responsibility. But I’m beginning to think I might be wrong about that too. I’m beginning to realize that I’ve overestimated myself. My elderly nMother has already emotionally discarded me. That’s so hard for me to face. I might manage to remain in her consciousness, but I’ll never be a person of value to her. Got to tell myself to just GET OVER IT! Then I’ve got to listen. Then detach and just do what needs to be done as far as the responsibility. Works in theory; hurts like hell in reality.

As far as seeing your names on the board, Flower, Singer and all- Lets all allow ourselves this one indulgence - to express ourselves when we need to. I guess there is an infinite supply of space out here, you aren't taking anyone else's place, and only those who want to read will.

That’s true, but old habits die hard. As a kid I was always the last to speak up, as an adult the last to commit to an opinion. I found out the hard way that that can be every bit as annoying to people as the opposite. Problem is where to draw the line. I was raised in an all or nothing emotional evironment and it’s difficult to stop thinking in terms of extremes. The good news is now that I'm pretty old myself I really don't mind annoying people anymore.

Singer

[renee]

Howdy all,

I know this is an older thread but I wanted to comment. I tried to say my peace in another thread but the integrity of the thread was violated.

I told in a former post that I own a business with 4 other partners. Sometimes it's hard to deal with that many personalities. But I noticed that one of the partners was always getting offended. Of course when that happens, all discussion kind of comes to a halt. I had to realize that this was a pattern...."I'm offended", followed by everyone's silence and inappropriate guilt. I finally figured this out thank goodness. This person is really pretty nice, but this one feature of her personality is bad for our business.

But My Mom uses this getting offended thing too. Maybe another word would be to shame. I guess it's the same thing. It's something to watch out for none the less in what result it produces. I now call her on this and she doesn't use it as much since she can't get away with it. My addition to the bag o tricks is carpet bagger.

Thanks you all for letting me speak. I'm finding my voice better now.

Renee

[Anonymous]

This thread has done me a lot of good actually even if it is old.

Of course, for years I thought something was wrong with me for I have been told all my life this everytime I did something for myself without asking permission first, first by mother, then x husband who was doing this to control my finances. I divorced him finally after waking up and that is finally history as of one year ago. But, right after that, I started traveling a bit in order to heal, something mother could not handle for she was not in control of me.  So, she started again with the be-littling comments of old but this time I recognized them for what they are.  But, it has been hard putting up the mirror shield, for I have never done this before with her.  But it is getting easier to do so.  And I am motivated beyond belief!!!!!!!

She is a master at passive manipulation.  Keeps telling me when she feels insecure that there is something wrong with my thyroid, my weight, my faith, my choice of clothes, my house is not decorated right, etc. Just name it and there has been a comment.  She says she tells me these things because she knows I would like to know when it is not right!  LOL  I have had thyroid tested even and it is working fine, thank you! My home is in shades of white, green and blue, which is nice, and my religion is rather on the mystical side of Christianity, something she cannot relate to at all.  She holds money inheritance over our heads in very passive ways, for instance saying, "Inheritance is a priviledge not a right of birth so it is best not to stray far from the family fold."  But the worst thing was that she went behind my back to my adult children for 1.5 years during the horrendous divorce without me knowing it trying to put a wedge between us.  The entire time she was telling me that they were drifting from me...something she wanted to happen for my father had recently died and she was trying to "attach" to them in a N way. My x did this with our daughter, not our son, for the same reason.  Son, bless him, would have no part of it and now slowly the daughter is seeing things for the truth in the situation.  

Probably I have talked too long, but I simply needed to vent. Just spent a week with her while she recovered from a stroke and I am about done.  I shall not be with her by myself again.  Just not worth it.

[Kris]

Hi gardener,
  Thanks for your comments! People have told me I should write a book on this and that. I really should put it all down someday. Thanks for the encouragement!

Hi Les,
I appreciate your description of  "love" ala N style. Phew! You put it down in a very excellent way. It made me a little sick also kinda like it did Singer. I find your posts valuable. Thanks!

There must be a book that deals with N mothers and these other twisted elements. Anybody know which one might deal with mothers consuming their children and calling it love?

Yeah, I wish there was an easy to read book out there that gave insight into all this.      I'm sure many of you have read the book "Mommie Dearest".  That came to mind as a book that fits that category although it is only from poor Crawford's daughter's point of view. That book was a doozy. One thing that got me was that at first Joan Crawford called her adopted baby daughter Joan Jr.

Hi MM,  

I'm not feeling much about it....no gnashing of the teeth so to speak. It's just information which I have to make a decision about.   MM

I sometimes have your attitude i.e.  just information that you need to deal with. Then she fills my head again somehow. Time to deprogram myself.... again.
My head will reset and my memories will start to fade of her abuse. No kidding. She had a lot of bait I fell for before I woke up. She baited me to get her supply of flattery, false attention, puffing up and then she would poke me and I would deflate. Over and over this happened. I feel like a dummy.

Hi Singer,

"there I go again!" and cringe inside when I see my name on a post

I feel self-conscience to see myself up there on the board. I think I look selfish. But I think I was raised to feel selfish if I expressed myself. There were times that I argued as a child and my mom let me have my way, but not without saying, "But, you better think about it!"  So I was trained to feel bad if I got my way. By the time I was into my  teens, I gave up on butting my head against the N brickwall and became compliant and depressed.

[Kris]

Hi gardener,
  Thanks for your comments! People have told me I should write a book on this and that. I really should put it all down someday. Thanks for the encouragement!

Hi Les,
I appreciate your description of  "love" ala N style. Phew! You put it down in a very excellent way. It made me a little sick also kinda like it did Singer. I find your posts valuable. Thanks!

There must be a book that deals with N mothers and these other twisted elements. Anybody know which one might deal with mothers consuming their children and calling it love?

[/b]


Hi,
There is a great book called "Children of Self-Absorbed Parents-Nism" that helped me.  It helps expain the normal reaction of a child or an adult to this disfunctional behavior.  The best info I got from it is that if you feel like your going crazy because of the ambiguous behavior, then your normal.  Only N's and unhealthy people are not bothered by other N's. Whew!!!!  

Yeah, I wish there was an easy to read book out there that gave insight into all this.      I'm sure many of you have read the book "Mommie Dearest".  That came to mind as a book that fits that category although it is only from poor Crawford's daughter's point of view. That book was a doozy. One thing that got me was that at first Joan Crawford called her adopted baby daughter Joan Jr.

Hi MM,  

I'm not feeling much about it....no gnashing of the teeth so to speak. It's just information which I have to make a decision about.   MM

I sometimes have your attitude i.e.  just information that you need to deal with. Then she fills my head again somehow. Time to deprogram myself.... again.
My head will reset and my memories will start to fade of her abuse. No kidding. She had a lot of bait I fell for before I woke up. She baited me to get her supply of flattery, false attention, puffing up and then she would poke me and I would deflate. Over and over this happened. I feel like a dummy.

Hi Singer,

"there I go again!" and cringe inside when I see my name on a post

I feel self-conscience to see myself up there on the board. I think I look selfish. But I think I was raised to feel selfish if I expressed myself. There were times that I argued as a child and my mom let me have my way, but not without saying, "But, you better think about it!"  So I was trained to feel bad if I got my way. By the time I was into my  teens, I gave up on butting my head against the N brickwall and became compliant and depressed.

[Anonymous]

Hi gardener,
  Thanks for your comments! People have told me I should write a book on this and that. I really should put it all down someday. Thanks for the encouragement!

Hi Les,
I appreciate your description of  "love" ala N style. Phew! You put it down in a very excellent way. It made me a little sick also kinda like it did Singer. I find your posts valuable. Thanks!

There must be a book that deals with N mothers and these other twisted elements. Anybody know which one might deal with mothers consuming their children and calling it love?

[/b]


Hi,
There is a great book called "Children of Self-Absorbed Parents-Nism" that helped me.  It helps expain the normal reaction of a child or an adult to this disfunctional behavior.  The best info I got from it is that if you feel like your going crazy because of the ambiguous behavior, then your normal.  Only N's and unhealthy people are not bothered by other N's. Whew!!!!  
Kris

Yeah, I wish there was an easy to read book out there that gave insight into all this.      I'm sure many of you have read the book "Mommie Dearest".  That came to mind as a book that fits that category although it is only from poor Crawford's daughter's point of view. That book was a doozy. One thing that got me was that at first Joan Crawford called her adopted baby daughter Joan Jr.

Hi MM,  

I'm not feeling much about it....no gnashing of the teeth so to speak. It's just information which I have to make a decision about.   MM

I sometimes have your attitude i.e.  just information that you need to deal with. Then she fills my head again somehow. Time to deprogram myself.... again.
My head will reset and my memories will start to fade of her abuse. No kidding. She had a lot of bait I fell for before I woke up. She baited me to get her supply of flattery, false attention, puffing up and then she would poke me and I would deflate. Over and over this happened. I feel like a dummy.

Hi Singer,

"there I go again!" and cringe inside when I see my name on a post

I feel self-conscience to see myself up there on the board. I think I look selfish. But I think I was raised to feel selfish if I expressed myself. There were times that I argued as a child and my mom let me have my way, but not without saying, "But, you better think about it!"  So I was trained to feel bad if I got my way. By the time I was into my  teens, I gave up on butting my head against the N brickwall and became compliant and depressed.

[Anonymous]

Hi gardener,
  Thanks for your comments! People have told me I should write a book on this and that. I really should put it all down someday. Thanks for the encouragement!

Hi Les,
I appreciate your description of  "love" ala N style. Phew! You put it down in a very excellent way. It made me a little sick also kinda like it did Singer. I find your posts valuable. Thanks!

There must be a book that deals with N mothers and these other twisted elements. Anybody know which one might deal with mothers consuming their children and calling it love?

[/b]


Hi,
There is a great book called "Children of Self-Absorbed Parents-Nism" that helped me.  It helps expain the normal reaction of a child or an adult to this disfunctional behavior.  The best info I got from it is that if you feel like your going crazy because of the ambiguous behavior, then your normal.  Only N's and unhealthy people are not bothered by other N's. Whew!!!!  
Kris

Yeah, I wish there was an easy to read book out there that gave insight into all this.      I'm sure many of you have read the book "Mommie Dearest".  That came to mind as a book that fits that category although it is only from poor Crawford's daughter's point of view. That book was a doozy. One thing that got me was that at first Joan Crawford called her adopted baby daughter Joan Jr.

Hi MM,  

I'm not feeling much about it....no gnashing of the teeth so to speak. It's just information which I have to make a decision about.   MM

I sometimes have your attitude i.e.  just information that you need to deal with. Then she fills my head again somehow. Time to deprogram myself.... again.
My head will reset and my memories will start to fade of her abuse. No kidding. She had a lot of bait I fell for before I woke up. She baited me to get her supply of flattery, false attention, puffing up and then she would poke me and I would deflate. Over and over this happened. I feel like a dummy.

Hi Singer,

"there I go again!" and cringe inside when I see my name on a post

I feel self-conscience to see myself up there on the board. I think I look selfish. But I think I was raised to feel selfish if I expressed myself. There were times that I argued as a child and my mom let me have my way, but not without saying, "But, you better think about it!"  So I was trained to feel bad if I got my way. By the time I was into my  teens, I gave up on butting my head against the N brickwall and became compliant and depressed.