Settling & Rationalizing

[BlueTopaz]

Hi Group:

I am a several months out of a 5 year relationship with an N.

Though I would not wish to relive the experience, I am at least grateful regarding how much I learned about myself and “life” from it.   Learned through a lot of deep pain, as is a given when spending time in the company of an N.

Looking forward to eventually dating someone new, I am finding myself confused over something.

I settled a lot in the relationship with N.   Meaning, I turned a blind eye to red flags that  I knew where red flags at the time, I took emotional treatment from him that I would never give the advice for another to take from someone, I kept going back when I should not have, etc…    

I did these things because I did not want the “dream/fantasy” of him being “the one”, to die.    He had a great side, and a "him" that would have existed without the Nism would have truly been a great match for me.   This, plus the intermittent reinforcement he would give (approach-avoidance) reeled me in too many times.

Now I am confused regarding what is settling, versus what is something I should not accept and move on.    Outright abuse as well as some other things I have learned to watch for from N are obvious, but for example, I recently began chatting with someone who has a high-ish profile in sports.    

I began to think “do I really want someone where most of the conversation and life focus and planning will need to be on them, and their career to such a large degree”?      

Then, I begin to rationalize and think about all of the positive aspects: I exercise regularly as well, it would be exciting to a degree, etc.

I apologize because I don’t think I’m being clear here.   I’m having difficulty explaining what my question is for some reason.    

My concern, is that I will spot things that might be red flags, and keep rationalizing them away.    The crux of things is that I’m not sure when rationalizing would be legit and a good thing (because I’m being too picky & should really move forward with the person), and when rationalizing is just is me settling and ignoring red flags (where I shouldn't move forward), in hope of it being a loving and “right” relationship.

Any thoughts…  if anyone understood what the heck I’m asking

[Dawning]

BlueTopaz,

I think I understand.  I can certainly relate.  I've just come out of a 7 year relationship with someone where I did the same thing....rationalized that he was *the one.*  It is a topsy-turvy time.  My advice is to stay grounded and focus on what you want for yourself.  What are your dreams?  Reach for the stars but keep your feet on the ground.   That it has taken me this long to realize how important that is boggles my mind but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Now, you've met someone else.  Be true to yourself and your feelings and talk about what those feelings are to him before you jump into anything too quickly.  

For those of us brought up around N's...and I don't know if this applies to you...we get programmed as children that our needs are not as important as the N's and, well, in my case I suppressed my needs for half my life.  It is not fair to you or the person(s) in your life who might want to love you for just being you.  Take it slow and give in measured doses.

[BlueTopaz]

Hi Dawing,

Thanks a lot for your reply.  

I wasn't brought up with an N parent, but with a parent with an anxiety disorder, and this certainly had a large effect upon me.

I had developed into someone that felt invisible, uheard, unimportant,  and had always focused more on others needs as well.  

I am on the healing path from these things now.  In the heart of the process, and have healed very well in some areas, and some are still quite a work in progress.

Your message helped me to clarify my thoughts, and I realize that this person is not going to be a good match for me.    We had only started talking with the "hint/air" of possibly dating.   So, it was nothing serious.

I'm not going to pursue it as I don't feel it is a lifestyle fit.

Thanks so much for reminding me to think most about what
I truly want.  

[Anonymous]

The crux of things is that I’m not sure when rationalizing would be legit and a good thing (because I’m being too picky & should really move forward with the person), and when rationalizing is just is me settling and ignoring red flags (where I shouldn't move forward), in hope of it being a loving and “right” relationship.

If you observe yourself rationalizing, 99.9% of the time it means you are ignoring red flags.

For excellent advice on avoiding bad relationships, read "Are You The One For Me?" by Barbara de Angelis.

bunny

[BlueTopaz]

Thanks Bunny.   Very good food for thought.    

I had more time to think about what I was so confused about.

Do you have any thoughts on what the difference between empathy and rationalizing is?    Knowing the difference is what seems to confuse me.  

Honestly, I would have no idea whether I was being rightfully empathetic of certain behaviors (i.e. taking his history, known vulnerabilities, fears into account)  or mistakenly rationalizing behaviors that I should be upset over.    

Maybe the duration of the behaviors has something to do with it?  For instance, it might be rightful empathy in the first little while, but if it keeps occuring after discussion about it, and my kind support, it becomes rationalizing if I continue to put up with it.

Anyway, if you have any other thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

[Bonnie]

Hi Blue Topaz

my thoughts on relationships.

- it can take 3 years to find out the truth of the person you're with (ie 3 years for the projections to drop away) so go slow in relationships.
- relationships shouldn't have to be THAT HARD. ie it should go smooth 90% of the time.

you are asking some really good questions which shows you are growing - you will find the answers for yourself through future relationships. It may be that you need some more practise in relationships before you find 'the one'.

compromise is important in a relationship but so too is staying true to yourself............. it's a very fine balance

good luck!

[bunny]

Do you have any thoughts on what the difference between empathy and rationalizing is?    Knowing the difference is what seems to confuse me.  

Honestly, I would have no idea whether I was being rightfully empathetic of certain behaviors (i.e. taking his history, known vulnerabilities, fears into account)  or mistakenly rationalizing behaviors that I should be upset over.    

Maybe the duration of the behaviors has something to do with it?  For instance, it might be rightful empathy in the first little while, but if it keeps occuring after discussion about it, and my kind support, it becomes rationalizing if I continue to put up with it.

Anyway, if you have any other thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

Empathy for someone's behaviors, past history, etc., is not a green light for romance. You may not even be able to sustain a friendship with him. You may even decide that no contact is reasonable. Empathy only means you understand his situation. It doesn't mean he's relationship material. Far from it.

Relationships have to be based on pragmatic considerations plus mutual attraction. If you ignore the pragmatic stuff at the beginning, you'll end up hurting later.

bunny

[BlueTopaz]

Thanks Bonnie.

relationships shouldn't have to be THAT HARD.

Yes!  This is something that is really sinking in for me.   It was so hard with xN more often than not, and now I am more clear that it is not supposed to be that way.

I knew intellectually, but at heart, I always thought (rationalized!) that we were doing great inner work.   Working hard through painful things, to a brighter future.   So, I chose to view the ongoing pain as work to a healed and loving path for us.  Stubborn hope does die hard!  

Thanks again.


Bunny:

Thanks.   I am aware of everything you have written, particularly that empathy alone does not make a relationship.   I work in a field where I  often see unhealthy scenarios where empathy is the drawing factor.    Feeling "pity" or sorry for someone and relating to their pain, is mistaken for a reason to begin a relationship with them.   This of course, is all about the needs and inner scripts of the partner wishing to "comfort" or "save" or "make better".    

I was talking more about the dif. between empathy & rationalizing, where the relationship was not based on empathy to begin with.   Perhaps even within a healthy relationship.

But for me, it is specifically that it is difficult to know when first meeting a new potential mate, whether I am showing rightful, healthy empathy toward a specific behavior that I might find "ify", or whether I am rationalizing a behavior that shoud have me heading for the door.    

In other words, where does rightful empathy end, and unhealthy rationalizing begin...  

I'm still confused between the two, but I think as Bonnie mentioned, it will take some experience within my next non N relationship, whenever that should happen.   I am completely single at the moment.

Just remembering things like listening & following what my needs & wants are (which I never did), and that relationships should not be that hard most of the time, will serve a cues to help me sort it out.

[write]

when I meet someone I observe how they interact with others, what they say about their family, their former partners, about women and about life.
Then I watch what they DO as opposed to what they say they'll do.
It very quickly becomes apparent who has a negative view of women or who is potentially abusive or untrustworthy.

The main thing is- don't go into the relationship anyway!

For people like us who spent our formative years loaning out part of ourselves to dysfunctional others it takes time to break the habit of 'bridging the gap'.

At least you're aware.

Maybe you need some space out of relationships for a while?

[BlueTopaz]

Write, you are right lol...

I have been out of the relationship with xN for almost a year, but still feel that I may need a bit more time before getting into another relationship.  

I won't be pursuing any relationship with the sports guy (see initial post).  I really don't feel this is a match for me, so I'm going to pass on it.    

This in itself is something I am proud of, because prior, like trying to fit the good old square peg into a round hole, I always tried to fit myself into being a match for whatever the other person's lifestyle and needs were.  

This time, I am passing on something because it doesn't meet the needs of who I truly am & what I want- horray!

I think I need just a little more time to get some things straight within.   I also do not want to push potential good people/matches who genuinely want to show me their caring & love, away.   I think there will always be a little fear in starting the first relationship after having been through the crazies with an N.  

I know that I want a very particular kind of person, which is very emotionally aware, inwardly wise, and spiritually (no religious
connotation) based.  With that specific type, I could continue to work through some things, while being within the relationship.  

I feel that many good relationships actually facilitate healing of the inner self....

So, a little more time, and the right person...

Great advice about saying and doing...    Yes, yes, yes.  I think how a person is in this area is a major telling sign, and it will be something I will very actively watch for.   Something I will put on my criteria list.  

Thanks a lot for your reply.

[Anonymous]

But for me, it is specifically that it is difficult to know when first meeting a new potential mate, whether I am showing rightful, healthy empathy toward a specific behavior that I might find "ify", or whether I am rationalizing a behavior that shoud have me heading for the door.    

In other words, where does rightful empathy end, and unhealthy rationalizing begin.

I think you need to know what your standards, values, and non-negotiable items are. We all ignore some 'iffy' behaviors when we're attracted to someone. Are we talking about how he squeezes the toothpaste, or whether he has cheated in the past? Be honest with yourself about whether this behavior/factor will be insupportable in future.

bunny

[cplummer]

I am so intrigued with your posts, Blue, because your thoughts and rationalizations and trying to figure this and that out sound so very much like me--10 years ago.  One thing that hasn't been mentioned, and that I never did very well,, was to trust my intuition.  I feel that me, and probably others who get involved with N men and other abusers, don't trust our intuition enough.  Perhaps it' s been clouded over with our own abusive childhoods--I know mine was.  But I still had it.  It was there.  I just wasn't listening to it.  Try developing and uncovering and listening to yours!!  You are an amazing woman!!

[BlueTopaz]

Thanks Caroline!  

Yes, exactly.  I ignored red flags, which stemmed both from my xN's overt behavior and that stemmed directly from my intuition.

Boy, did I ignore the inner voices that were literally screaming at me.  I knew I was not listening as I should while I was ignoring them, too.  I didn't heed because my desire for things to be other than what they were, sooooo strong.  

I did not want to accept the truth of the situation.  What I'm learning now, is that early acceptance (that the relationship/person might not be right) is key.  

Saying "STOP!" to fantasy thinking.   It's easier to get out early on.

Hope I can do it.  I think I can now...  I do know that I never want to be in such a hard relationship again, or go through that kind of soul-deep, destructive pain, ever, ever.

Hope you are feeling better today.

Take care  

[Anonymous]

Great Thread.  I also think the gut thing is the key.  I have really strong intuitions and gut feelings about things.  I have promised myself to never, ever doubt them again.  If my alarms go off I tune in and take notes.  I don't doubt for a second they have basis anymore.  When my liar alarm goes off I know I am in the presence of a liar and I take heed.  
Being a good listener helps. You can learn a lot about a person that way.
Always trust what your intuition is saying. Stay true to yourself and your wants and needs, at all costs (even the cute ones).