Emotional Communication

[Confounded]

Thanks again to all of you.  The help you provide is much appreciated.

tjr100, I really like your data collection method, letting it flow naturally, and counting negative, positive, and neutral interactions.  10% positive makes your dad sound like quite the sourpuss.  It's too bad for him.  He has to live with himself 24/7.  I wonder what happens if you don't respond to him.  If he remarks that weather forecasts are worthless, and you don't say anything in reply, do you know what he does?

He seems to be deliberately attempting to engage you in a potential disagreement.  If you just go about your business, and don't say anything in reply, he fails to engage you.  Ignoring is a rather passive-aggressive tactic.  But it allows one to take a stand of self-preservation, "I'm not going to allow you to suck me into your negative b*llsh*t."  You stop them from stealing your time for their asinine purposes. 

I have decided to call this the Doctrine of Diminished Communication.  It's working well, and I find this to be extremely ironic.  The conventional wisdom is that relationships function best with more and better communication.  When dealing with N'ish types, this simply isn't true.  The situation goes best with less and very selective communication.  The key is to remember that it is futile to engage in discussion with somebody who is exhibiting that negative N'ish behavior.  If something is said that warrants a response, that's great.  If it doesn't get through the BS filter, no response, just as if it were never said.  On to the next thing, something you WANT to do.

[Certain Hope]

I have decided to call this the Doctrine of Diminished Communication.  It's working well, and I find this to be extremely ironic.  The conventional wisdom is that relationships function best with more and better communication.  When dealing with N'ish types, this simply isn't true.  The situation goes best with less and very selective communication.  The key is to remember that it is futile to engage in discussion with somebody who is exhibiting that negative N'ish behavior.   If something is said that warrants a response, that's great.  If it doesn't get through the BS filter, no response, just as if it were never said.  On to the next thing, something you WANT to do.

I love it - the doctrine of diminished BS is apt, too! 
That's the truth, Confounded, and one which I didn't exactly "learn", per se, but rather managed to achieve through sheer exhaustion... lol.
But for me, that was back in the day, you know... the dreaded day of the NPD ex.  Here in my present, there are a few folks with whom I definitely need to remember and apply that same lesson... and the way you've phrased it, I know that I can!  I won't even consider it to be ignoring the individual... simply ignoring the BS!  What a way to aquire a built-in BS-o-meter, eh? ((((Confounded))))  I wish you and your girls so much health and wellness.
When the police finally got my ex out of our home, my youngest, my son, said it was like a shadow had been removed from our lives....
just some food for thought.

Love to you,
Carolyn

[SilverLining]

Thanks again to all of you.  The help you provide is much appreciated.


I have decided to call this the Doctrine of Diminished Communication.  It's working well, and I find this to be extremely ironic.  The conventional wisdom is that relationships function best with more and better communication.  When dealing with N'ish types, this simply isn't true.  The situation goes best with less and very selective communication.  The key is to remember that it is futile to engage in discussion with somebody who is exhibiting that negative N'ish behavior.  If something is said that warrants a response, that's great.  If it doesn't get through the BS filter, no response, just as if it were never said.  On to the next thing, something you WANT to do.

I think this is a great insight and I love the term DDC.     It seems we are all conditioned into a conventional wisdom which encourages self blame.  If things aren't working out, we should try harder.   It's a subtle trap.  Since we appear to be the more conscious party to the relationship (having studied these issues) then it's up to us to push for more and better communication.  The other party has a "mental illness" and thus escapes responsibility. 

How much responsibility do we really have in this kind of situation?  In my case all the  FOO members live multiple states away, and under the best of circumstances I probably am not going to have much contact with any of them.  So it doesn't seem to me there is much sense in pushing for more and better communication.  I pretty much go for "diminished communication" while also being more assertive when I do get caught in one of these negative interactions.  For instance, I might try to calmly remind my father the weather forecasters may not be right all the time, but their information is probably better than nothing.   It kind of catches me in another level of game playing, but no answer is perfect. 

I find since I increased my assertiveness in response to his BS, he has moved into a "diminished contact" mode of his own, which is fine by me.  We were already down to nothing but small talk (such as the weather) and now we don't have much contact at all.  I realize I have to seek my real communication elsewhere.

[Certain Hope]

Hi, tjr,

I'm just now getting back to read your posts more thoroughly and wanted to thank you... so sorry I just skimmed them before. Especially appreciate the info re: corrections, counterpoints, and discounts within communication.
None of it has reached an abusive level, by any means, but each one of us within our household has one or more of these conversational habits... and it's usually comical, but I can definitely see how it could become an annoyance. 16 yo daughter is mistress of the counterpoint/correction combo,  son, the 12 yo future attorney, does the but buts, and I do the correction to my husband's counterpointing... lol... or something like that. Anyway, it's weird to recognize, through your description, what it is we're actually doing. And seriously, my husband (Mr. Positive) often feels that I'm being negative when I suggest possible negative ramifications to one of his proposals... oh boy.  So... I think maybe I'll get Patricia Evans' book and give my style an overhaul.

Our families are all quite distant, geographically, as well... and most of the time, I'm sure that's a real blessing. But still, it's hard not to feel the loss when you can't have a genuine, down-to-earth, intimate conversation with those who are supposed to be closest to you. I'm sorry... I know it's painful. Like you said, my parents are not generally outright abusive, but there is simply no meeting of the emotions... or minds, really... it's just all about them. And at ages 87 and 80, I sometimes feel really sad that I didn't know some of this alot sooner... yet I doubt whether it woulda made much difference as far as changing them.

Thanks again.
Carolyn
9

[axa]

Hi C

Just a few thoughts, the fact that T said your H had N tendancies, does not mean that he does not have NPD.  You H sounds so like my X and trust me he has NPD.  I understand that you do not want more of the same relationships but what I figured out was that unless I changed that was what was going to happen.  Working hard on the changing of me and not in a relationship which is actually quite nice.  I think, bottom line is, he is not going to change.  I think, as it stands, a lot of your energy is taken up defending against him with stratagies, observing and trying to keep things under control.  I guess I got sick of living like this C.  It was like taking care of a very destructive child who was hell bent on causing problems.  I do think only you can make your decision but I am left thinking of what you could do with all the wonderful energy you have if you were not using it up on a narcissist.

Hugs,

axa

p.s.  With X I thought I knew how nasty he would get, I had no idea......... glad you got out too Carolyn

[SilverLining]

None of it has reached an abusive level, by any means, but each one of us within our household has one or more of these conversational habits... and it's usually comical, but I can definitely see how it could become an annoyance. 16 yo daughter is mistress of the counterpoint/correction combo,  son, the 12 yo future attorney, does the but buts, and I do the correction to my husband's counterpointing... lol... or something like that.

Yes I've also found these concepts result in sometimes humorous and sometimes disturbing realizations.  It seems everybody does these things to some degree.  As long as there is a good positive core to the relationship, quite a few covert mistakes are tolerable.   For these situations, the term "abuse" is probably too strong.  Maybe "socially unconscious negative habits" or something like that? 

There is a point at which it shades into more active abuse.   I have pretty much discontinued a couple of casual friendships in recent years  because I am more aware of abusive patterns and got tired of 90% counterpoint responses.   I notice some of the more N-ish people are very skilled at throwing out a positive bone or two before lapsing into the more abusive behavior.  They ask a couple of questions to make it appear they are interested in you, then they sink in the fangs.. An ex-friend would always ask me how I was doing, and about the family, maybe even something about my interests or recent activities, then he would plop down and talk non-stop about himself for an hour straight, counterpointing or discounting anything I had to say.