Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
N parents create children naive about close relationships?
flower:
Hi everyone,
------------------------------------------------------
Thanks so much for your insight and support.
It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven: Ecclesiates 3:1
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My mother didn't talk to me about life and relationships as I grew up. I feel like she intentionally didn't explain manipulation because she was busy doing it to me. I remember asking relationship advice of my mom as a teen and she had some stupid glib answers that solved nothing.
------------------------------------------------------
Thanks so much for your insight and support.
It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven: Ecclesiates 3:1
------------------------------------------------------------
Dawning:
Flower,
Thanks for posting this topic. I don't know how common it is but it sure reasonated with me when I read it. It is a difficult topic for me and one that I haven't fully explored but there is something here so allow me to share and thanks again for bringing it up. I'm afraid I don't have any insights.
I never felt like I fit in ever since I can *remember* even though I needed close relationship(s) all my life. I am starting to see it more clearly - that it is a normal need. But I don't know what to do to have a close relationship with others so I am working on having a normal, unstunted one with myself. I think creating something would be fulfilling. I am at a point where I can give myself permission to create something by myself without seeing the creative process as a problem. How weird is that? Feels like some old program that I never knew I had.
--- Quote ---My mother didn't talk to me about life and relationships as I grew up. I feel like she intentionally didn't explain manipulation because she was busy doing it to me. I remember asking relationship advice of my mom as a teen and she had some stupid glib answers that solved nothing.
--- End quote ---
My mother and no one in my family talked to me about this either or *modelled* it for me. And they sure were busy manipulating, that is for sure. I don't think they intentionally withheld valuable life information from me. I think on their scale of priorities, getting me to meet their needs of me was a lot more imporant than helping me have or create a happy life for myself. I don't think they cared about my happiness at all when I was a child or teen.
I had to learn the hard way too. You are not alone.
Maybe one reason for the naivety, the inability to form close relationships, is because its impossible to have a close, real relationship with N parents so a fantasy is created about a perfect, albeit naive perception of what a relationship truly is and the effort it takes to get there. And the fantasy held for so long protects so it is hard to give up. Before I saw myself as a victim. When my last attempt at a close relationship failed, I found the message inside of me: heal. find yourself. find the truth covered over by lies and years of manipulation that keeps you from establishing close relationships and go slowly into them.
--- Quote ---It is painful to admit my foibles and I blush sometimes at my own posts.
--- End quote ---
I am blushing a bit too. This has been a hard post to write and I am sorry I don't have more insight. I'm not sure whether I helped you gain a perspective you are looking for cause I am looking to. Maybe some others will have some insight into this.
Anonymous:
flower and Dawning,
Great topic. I agree with Dawning that we create a fantasy about relationships that's unrealistic. It is pretty ingrained and difficult to dislodge even with empirical and rational evidence to the contrary. This is because we develop templates in childhood that are embedded in our psyche, even in our nervous system. It takes a lot of effort and time to revise the templates. Some people never get the gumption to do it; or lack the tools; or are too dysfunctional so they don't even see a problem (our N parents for example).
I don't think our parents intentionally misled us. I think they weren't grounded in reality in the first place, so they couldn't tell us about it. And they had severe emotional or mental problems. So all they could do was project into us the same sick templates they had (big problem!).
I didn't learn about normal human interactions until I was in my 30s. I was miserable, hated myself, and didn't know how to deal with people without being exploited or persecuted. I learned about it because I was desperate. It can be learned like any other skill or knowledge.
bunny
Dawning:
Hi. :)
--- Quote ---It's kind of like deciding what kind of person one wants to be in an enjoyable creative journey of discovery .
--- End quote ---
Ideally. For me, its a slog. It require something I didn't bring with me into my independent life: self-enforcement of discipline. I left that at the door when I left home years ago. Now I am working through getting it back on my own terms. 'Tis not easy for me to be creative. If I take lessons, I am okay until something *happens* that makes me lose my confidence and it usually involves the feeling of being betrayed. For example, I was taking belly dance lessons (4 years ago) and my teacher let me sleep over one night cause it was late. In my naive mind, I thought it would be fine to sleep in the same bed as her. Then, as we were laying there, she tells me that she and her SO want to BOTH sleep with me; she said it would make us "closer." I said I wasn't ready for that. Yucky stuff. Her SO was an alcoholic. And why the attraction? She didn't like the way I danced and never gave me much encouragement.
The dancing thing never sat well with my mother and grandmother. Or any creativity unless it involved them. I have two vivid memories of this but never connected them until recently. Once, I was dancing to a song on the TV show, Soul Train. I must have been 10. Grandmother said she didn't like that kind of dancing; that it was okay to use my legs only :?: . But I still wanted to perform. So I wrote a note to my grandparents introducing my new dance done in "wiggly leg motion." I remember having to beg (they would call it demand) their attention but, when I danced, I gave it my all. I poured my heart and soul into it. My grandmother looked perplexed. I seemed to make a connection with my grandfather for an instant and then it was over. No applause, no recognition. Just back to work at whatever they were doing. But when I imitated my grandmother, she loved it. She still writes letter to me reminding me how cute I was when I imitated her. Or, when I was in the hospital with asthma at age 3 and I entertained all the nurses with my singing. And then there was the "curse word box" I made up to get my mother and grandparents to stop cursing. They, were having a party and out from the bedroom I came with my silver box. I had prices written on the front for how much they would have to pay if they said a *bad* word. They laughed pretty hard at this and, hey, I was the life of the party so...
When I started belly dancing 6 years ago (i'm not currently dancing or taking lessons), my mother quickly got competitive. I wanted to show them what I could do - and did - but they were not impressed. I think my grandmother said to my mother "YOU ought to try that." When my grandfather died, my mother got upset over everything real or imagined. She got upset at me over something having to do with her not getting her needs met. I was already 2 years into therapy and knew that I should try for something different. Not give in to her specific and unrealistic demand but still acknowledge and respect (I don't respect her anymore) her need to be cheered up/made happy and *my* need for the same. I asked if she might be up for a belly dance lesson. She hee-hawed and agreed. There was a male neighbor over and he was drinking his usual scotch on the rocks. I didn't give him much thought and he was literally nodding off in the chair. My mother went into her room, took off her shirt and came out in a loose-fitting scarf draped around her breasts. I was wearing a t-shirt and leggings. When I started to do a few basic moves, she stood right in between me and the neighbor. This is a man that she has repeatedly talked ill of, has stated she will not marry cause he's "not my type" and has criticized to others while he is in the room. She got up face to face with me which I felt uncomfortable with and so I moved off to the side. She then attempted to push me back into place.
So creativity has always come with a lot of hassles for me. The one thing I've always been able to do in private is write. That is the creative energy I am channeling now. Little by little. Step by step. I find myself being very protective of it though but at the same time wanting to share it. Its like the quagmire of whether to be close or not. Or wanting to be close to *anybody* thus setting myself up for rejection.
I sent out some emails tonight about joining some clubs.
--- Quote ---and didn't know how to deal with people without being exploited or persecuted. I learned about it because I was desperate.
--- End quote ---
Bunny, I am at the stage now. I didn't feel desperate for many years but definitely felt lonely and *deserving* of giving up all my needs for closeness. Now, I confess a feeling of desperation at making any kind of healthy connections at all. Thanks for sharing.
That was quite a whopper of a last post, flower. you've got some amazing insights there that I am going to have to read again. Will be back later after I've read it a few more times.
Anonymous:
flower,
Your mom sounds like my late MIL. She had a 'mind-meld' with her son (my H) that is still affecting him. He has tried to do melding with me but it didn't work. Then he got angry. But I think he was also relieved that I wouldn't go there, otherwise he'd be swallowed up like he was with his mother.
My fantasy is nearly the opposite of melding. I want people to leave me alone, not bother me, not want anything from me, and make no demands on me. And be attached to me anyway. My mother isn't like this. She demands that everyone agree with her view and placate her. I'm more like my father who is pretty distant and in his own world.
bunny
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