For Hermes

[Hermes]

Dear Leah;

I agree with you:  there is no excuse for rudeness. 

All the best
Hermes

[Hermes]

"""Dear Carolyn, I hear you, although I disagree entirely. No offense is taken, Carolyn.

I have never seen anyone attacked so persistently on this board before. Have you? What you are dismissing as `overidentification' is what I see as outrage, empathy, and hearing someone when they say it hurts.. """"

Dear Bella:

Thank you again.

Yes, you put your finger on it.  The word "persistently" is what I was looking for.  That also perplexes me, and also why I was singled out. 
I am thankful to Carolyn for her reasonable posts, and I see what she is saying. 

But, I am not at all still sure what the underlying reasons are for the attack.  I can understand someone saying: "I don't like what you said".  But I am perplexed about the en masse attack, as if several were just waiting for one to launch an attack and then join in. 
Even if people are hurting about something, they would not IMO launch this sort of attack.  I still think there is some other problem, but I doubt if I will be told. 

I think I will survive LOL.

Hermes

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Hermes,

Since it's difficult to convey tone in text here, I want to preface this by stating that I'm not angry. upset, frustrated, or annoyed in any way at the prospect of conversing with you.
If I were, I would choose not to speak at all.

I hope that you will think on that last sentence for a bit.

If I were feeling aggravated or furious or highly emotional in any way toward you, I would choose not to post to you at all.
That is simply my own internal structure/personality/style - - whatever it should be called - -
but the bottom line is the same - I would most likely not engage you in discussion.

Others are not so inclined.

We are each and every one different in temperament and style.

And here comes a statement at which I feel you may choose to take offense, so I'll add another disclaimer:  To some measure, this is how I am, and so I freely admit to a certain amount of projective identification here...

Hermes, I feel, sense, and think that you are not accustomed to emotional discussions.
You seem to be informationally oriented and not keen on dealing with the feelings which can be roused by the information exchanged.

Another disclaimer:  The above is not to state that anyone, anywhere, has a right to abuse, slander, attack, or defame you. It is simply an observation.

I am now prepared to deal with any emotional fallout from the above - from you.
From you, Hermes - - I would like to talk with you about how you feel about it... and not talk with anyone else about how they feel about it, at this point.

And here comes a very direct statement, written with no malice:  That means, I don't want Bella (whom I love and appreciate deeply) to come here and tell me how she would feel if she were you.
And I don't want anyone coming here to agree with my observations in supposed support of my position...
because I have no position here. I am simply trying to talk with you, Hermes.


I am glad for you that you have had validation from Bella. Truly, I am. I do not see matters in exactly the same light as she does, and yet I have felt deeply the experience of standing here absolutely alone and naked, with zero support, and I would not wish that on anyone. Please know that I am not trying to deprive you of needed support. I am rejecting any support for myself on this thread, as well, because I believe that it contaminates the field of discussion and most likely would only bring about a reformation of battle lines and a resurgance of attacks.

Hermes, this is the part of what you said which I think warrants further discussion, if you are willing:

"Having said all that, and you ask how I feel. Well, I suppose perplexed is the answer."

Whatever route may be necessary, and however long it takes - to get to that feeling and unwrap it... I'm willing to travel there with you to do that, Hermes.
The first stop on the map as I see it is in your quote here, which I've taken the liberty to copy out of sequence:


"... it must be awful, dreadful, and I can see that it would lead those persons to be untrustful of others...
I am totally on the side of the abused person...
... Perhaps, given that everyone on here is an adult, I suppose I expected adult responses, and I do not mean this sentence to be picked up wrongly.  Please!"

How can I pick up that sentence rightly, Hermes?
Please tell me what it means... when all I learned about maturity, from my mother, is to look down my nose at other people and dismiss those who don't measure up?
For over 40 years, (on edit:  oops, I'm not that old - - let's say for over 30 years) I operated quite successfully as a fake adult.
Now I'm getting a handle on the real thing... but I'm not finished yet... and I did not have anything near to the level of abuse which some of these folks here have endured.

So... May you and I discuss this? Could you and I converse without an entire chorus of onlookers chiming in?
I hope so.

I'd certainly like to find out!

Sincerely,
Carolyn

[Hermes]

Hello Carolyn:

And again thank you for your post, which I do appreciate.  I am quite sure Bella will have no reason to make any statement here, mainly because I do not feel your post attacks me in any way. 
What I am saying here are questions, asking for answers.  And that is fine.  You are not telling me to "clear off" or that I am some sort of undesirable element here.

Yes, of course everyone is different in temperament and style, and that IMO makes people interesting.  Now, even we pragmatists have a place in the world.  No, I don"t think "emotional" discussion would be my forte, but discussion about emotions, yes.  And none of that means I do not feel deeply for the pain of others, I do, and just to mention that here, in real life, many people have said I can tap into what they are feeling, and help them in many ways.  Again, the written word, just here on a cold screen, is not easy to interpret fully IMO.

Again, if I give information (I expect you mean things like links, articles, etc.?) it is because a) someone might ask where such information might be found, b) I feel that information is so important to understand and be validated, and c) some of those writers can express themselves better than I can.

I think I would never have made it back to "myself" after the N-trauma if I had not applied reason to the awful situation, and asked others to do the same.  I will just explain, very briefly:  in that hospital room, I went into the bathroom, looked in the mirror, say that grey-faced, wan stranger looking back at me (I weighed about 7 and a half stone), and something fired up in me.  The day before, and that morning, a nurse had helped me take a walk around the corridors (helped ME), because my knees were buckling under me.  Next day I checked myself out of the hospital, and got on my case of getting me back to me.  I did not want people being emotional with me, I needed to get back on the road (had to make a living for one thing).  I located a therapist, and told him (I was paying him) to help me get back "there".    I did not want to hear, "oh, how awful for you", or to get into conversations about feelings.  I felt awful, that was the truth, and no wonder.  It is not that I didnt wish to talk about feelings, or emotions.  I had not that much money then, therapists are expensive, and I only had so much time.
Now, this does not mean everyone might want to do what I did.  I am merely giving this little slice of the experience to show how I think.  And after my experience of course I am on the side of the abused person.  But being on their side does not mean I may ALWAYS know the right thing to say.  And maybe I do say something and it is taken up wrongly.  I want to know what am I supposed to say.   Sure, I can do the "there, there, dear" stuff.  No problem.  But is that what people really want?

You see, life is very short (stating the obvious here), and maybe, just maybe, it is possible to also look briefly (and maybe reject) the way I might see a way forward out of the quagmire.  Objective folks can be helpful too sometimes....
Could I also just say, and I know too well myself how expensive psychs/therapists are, that there is no substitute for that kind of "real life" support.  But, but, ...the therapist may not (if he or she is at all honest) tell one what one wants to hear.

Anyhow, hope some of this makes sense.  I"ve been on the road all day practically, and now need to write up notes and stuff. 

All the best
Hermes

[just asking (guest)]

Post deleted because of new "sock puppet" rule.

Richard

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Hermes,

For now, I only want to acknowledge your post and thank you so much for replying again.

Just returned from work myself, with a bit of a headache and a load of chores, but will try to read more thoroughly when my brain simmers down and I'm better able to formulate a response... hopefully, later this evening (which will be middle of the night for you, I know).

Anyhow... thanks! I look forward to conversing with you about many things and I appreciate your acceptance of my invitation to "chew the fat", as they say. I'm not so good at it, but would really like to learn.
Happy note writing!

Sincerely,
Carolyn

P.S.   I am not the person named Guest just asking, although I did ask you at one time what might be your goals in participation here.
As I recall, your reply was something to the effect of:  "Must one have a goal in order to participate?"   So I didn't ask again... and would probably not do so.

[Hermes]

Dear Guest:

Sure you can ask.  Anyone who wants can ask me anything, and all I can do is answer to best of ability.

In reply to your question:  I suppose something of both.  Because of my experiences I would hope to have something to offer.  But, you know, help can be misconstrued, and is often not accepted.

Secondly; don't we all need help, sometimes?  
I did put up some posts on other threads about "voicelessness" in my life.  It is not easy, and it is very hurtful to read that I made up those experiences.  I only wish they were made up.

I hope this answers your questions.

All the best
Hermes

[Hermes]

Sure.
Thanks Carolyn for replying at the end of your day.  And you will see my reply to "guest". 
Maybe it ISN'T always necessary to have a goal in doing something, IMO.  Sometimes, in real life, I do something just to see where it will take me.  It kind of takes away from the goal-oriented day or working and stuff.

It is very, very tiring to always be on guard, if you understand what I mean. 

One thing I am regretting very deeply is having (in response to requests here) posted some items about my personal voiceless experiences.  I assumed good faith, so I wrote those posts.  I am very hurt indeed to read that I made them up!!!! 

Thanks again, Carolyn.
Best wishes
Hermes

[Certain Hope]

(((((((Hermes)))))))  It never, ever occurred to me that you made them up. Truly.

I am sorry that you've been hurt.
I am sorry that others have been hurt, as well.

My feeling is that this is one very massive personality clash... and when I can be more assured that I won't mis-speak, I'll try to say more about that, as appropriate.

With love,
Carolyn

[Bella_French]

"
Dear Bella:

Thank you again.

Yes, you put your finger on it.  The word "persistently" is what I was looking for.  That also perplexes me, and also why I was singled out. 
I am thankful to Carolyn for her reasonable posts, and I see what she is saying. 

But, I am not at all still sure what the underlying reasons are for the attack.  I can understand someone saying: "I don't like what you said".  But I am perplexed about the en masse attack, as if several were just waiting for one to launch an attack and then join in. 


Hermes

Today I am speculating thats its the `language' thing, Hermes. Perhaps it reminds people of some of the N-trolls that have been around here.? There was one a few months back who  was very intelligent, & especially eloquent. And she hurt a lot of people, very deeply. So combine ` being new' and `language' and `Intellegence' and `Eloquence' and perhaps that is quite a triggering combination of personality traits for people on this forum? Understandably so, when know some of the history here.

I can feel empathy for those fears ( if they do exist and I'm not `over-identifying' ) , but I do not share them. I was a 101 member afterall, lol. N-trolls everywhere, and the forum was run by an N. So a great number of members were `pragmatic' and `objective' speakers and careful not to expose their vulnerabilities to others who had not yet  earned their trust. And its also the natural consequence of havng your feelings triggered over and over, and then used against you each time. You tend to get better at hiding them, to avoid the pain of being manipulated and wounded.

So many members were like that -shell-shocked-  and I spoke using the same language. But I have probably softened quite a bit over 8 years. But only a bit.

Its a bit of a stale mate, IMO. People want to see you `Belly-up', but they have not earned your trust. My argument is that peple should stop attacking you, but noone seems to think thats good advice. So I'm out of ideas, lol.

Have a good evening, Hermes.

X bella

















 

[Hermes]

It's OK. Carolyn.  Truly!

Maybe it is just that.  A personality clash. 

And maybe Bella is also right, in that I might have been mistaken for some "troll" who visited the board at some earlier time.  I think that might be it.  Maybe some thought I was someone else. 

Anyhow it is now late, time to get some rest.  I may have to be away for some days, just waiting to be told tomorrow.

Bye for the moment, and thank you again.
All the very best
Hermes

[Certain Hope]

Hermes, thank you. I am walking on some eggshells of my own, and that's nothing to do with you.

I really do believe it's a matter of personalities locking horns on the heels of alot of talk about trolls... and nothing more sinister.

After reading Bella's post, I'd like to say for myself that I have zero interest or desire in seeing you go "belly up"... and I strongly doubt whether anyone else does, either. But that's only my feeling and perception.

Honestly, I am feeling that Bella's posts somehow render any thought I might express as null and void... and that is indeed my problem, because I'm not getting that sort of feedback from you at all... yet I feel like I'm not being allowed to simply talk with you. So - - I'll work through those issues of my own and just wish you good, safe travels (if you are called away) and look forward to visiting with you again soon.

Sincerely,
Carolyn

[Bella_French]

Dear Carolyn,
I am embarrassed and upset with myself for causing you to feel that way. Hermes addressed a post to me specifically, so I responded to her. I do feel that she wanted to discuss it with me, and that is why she addressed me and I answered.

Yesterday, what I thought what you were asking me  to do was to not respond to posts that you directed at Hermes. And I have respected that, I feel.

if you are asking me to not speak with hermes, or respond to her when she addresses me, I have to answer `No' to that.

Your voice comes across, Carolyn. It is wonderful to read your posts; they are fair, reasonable, and compassionate. I don't share all your views, but I do not expect you to, share all mine, ever. Please do not shut down. You are valuable. Your voice is a special one.

X bella

[Certain Hope]

((((((Bella))))) When I read your post here last night I was tired, annoyed and, admittedly, a bit angry, too. For that reason alone, I did not reply at that time... thank God. Anyhow, thank you for your kind words... and for hearing my feelings beneath them. I really was about to shut down, and not only for one night.

Of course you should respond to people when they address you, which Hermes did - before my post in which I expressed a desire to be able to speak with her sans your interjections. 
And now I'm thinking that she likely was called away for a few days, as she'd anticipated, so... I'll hold off until she gets settled back in... but just wanted to acknowledge your post, and give you hugs. I really do appreciate you alot.

Love,
Carolyn

[Bella_French]

Dear Carolyn,

Hugs back to you:) I did not read your posts which were obviously addressed to Hermes, as I  saw them as none of my business after you asked me not to respond to those types of posts. But i saw Hermes question addressed to me, and she seemed to want a bit of support just then.

It is true that we do disagree on some recent discussion topics, Carolyn, and some of your suggestions regarding my `pathology' are immensely hurtful and highly discrediting. So I do really understand what a struggle it can be to disagree without feeling totally shut down, discredited, hurt, and misunderstood. I feel the same way right now.

But I remind myself, its just a difference of opinion. And you are entitled to express yours too. I think your language is always non-abusive and compassionate, and I respect you  for this. I think you show great care for me, and I am also grateful to you for that.

I appreciate you too Carolyn. I suppose its just hard to disagree with a person you really like. I think it takes discipline and grace to resist lashing out or nagging them into seeing your point of view to gain a sense of being understood (as is my weakness) . Its very hard for me too, but i don't think I've expressed that to you before now.

Thankyou for hearing me, Carolyn.

love and hugs to you,
Bella