re: "Why are people so upset by labels?"

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Laura,

In a recent thread you asked “Why are some people so upset by labels?” and posted the following:


“ok, I think I've had this as a topic in the past, but I'm bringing it up again, because a poster on here definitely sparked it.

I read something by someone today on this group, that was a definite sign of BPD. 

Now, my question is, if I were to address that person and say "that was definite bpd behavior" why would they most likely react with rage at me?

See, for me, if you see something in me, bpd, npd, avoidant, b*tchy, whatever, I have no problem if you tell me, and, many HAVE on here.  The issue I have is, if it's not true and there are no signs of it.

I can tell anyone that I struggle with control issues, codependency, anger, etc, but I will speak up if someone says I'm something that there is no proof of.

In this case, the person was referring to painting people black in order to justify deserting them...that is BPD and maybe even NPD, not sure, but I cannot tell this person what I saw in that statement at all, lest I be flamed, called a judgemental, met with some HOW DARE YOU's...I just guess I don't understand it.”

The answer is:

Labels or diagnoses are appropriate when a neutral, trained professional (Psychologist, Psychiatrist, or Social Worker) spends at least one or more sessions with a person and does a complete psychological evaluation.  Informal labels by non-trained or not fully trained parties are often colored or biased by one’s own history/issues and may be based on the labeler’s blindness and self-deception.  This is why advanced degrees and licensure in the mental health field requires years of detailed supervision—and often one’s own psychological treatment.  Informal labels/diagnoses by non-trained or even partially trained persons are often based on ignorance or a tiny bit of information (undergraduate psychology courses, popular books, etc.) and frequently serve as a form of attack.  Thus, people have every right to be upset by the labels placed on them by non-professionals.

I hope this helps.

Best,

Richard 

[Gabben]

Dr. Grossman,

That helped me a lot.

Thank you.

Lise

[dandylife]

I just wanted to add one thought here, also.

Laura's post covered the labeling of others in a negative way (NPD, BPD, rage-aholic, b*tch, etc.) But, people don't seem to get as upset about being labeled in a positive way (hard worker, "smart", people-person, genius, kind, etc.)

That other thread about society and how it dictates behavior was very interesting in that regard - the empathy towards sorrow or negative vs. empathy towards a person's joy.

Maybe there's a connection here, too.

Dandylife

[reallyME]

Dr G.

Thanks.  That makes a lot of sense.

[Leah]

Not saying it's easy, just suggesting that staying aware of the fact that it is a board for disordered people to express themselves is wise.

When I read the above, yesterday, as posted onto a thread post, I felt most startled, shocked even.

Which is why I have posted today, quite clearly, asking a very important question;

> That I would be most reassured to know exactly what is the Purpose of VESMB and to Whom exactly the board is for?  

As I see it, being generalized as a member on this board with a label of being a "Disordered" person, not only feels most INVALIDATING to me as a person.  I felt that the integrity of myself as a person, a human being, was being disrespected and disregarded, in being invalidated. 

My counsellor explained to me, a couple of years ago, that I was an "Injured" person on the road to healing, recovery and restoration.

Hence, Voicelessness means to me being Voiceless throughout my life, as no-one heard, and certainly, no-one understood through lack of knowledge and awareness.

Sincerely yours,

Leah

[Gabben]

Hi Leah,

Personally I can understand why the label would cause unhappiness. It's hurts to be labeled by anyone other than a trained professional. And I can understand how one might find the word disordered to be a bit derogatory.

Interestingly though, the term disordered does not effect me as much as being labeled an NPD or a BPD. That is because I AM disordered, it is true and seems to fit with my life patterns. But I am not NPD or BPD, therefore, those labels tend to hurt me as lies usually do.

I do not have a problem staring myself right in the face and admitting that I am disordered but through my willingness to be honest and face myself the disorder of my life is becoming less and less.

For me the disorder was about not getting enough love. As an adult I needed more, my codependency, that more led to excessive life style which causes disorder.

The first step to healing is to admit, or name the problem. Just like in AA the first step is to admit that you drink too much, which is a form of disorder.

It feels safe for me to speculate that if someone grew up with emotional injury then that person would or might suffer from some form of disorder such as addiction (too much substance) or depression (too much emotion turned inward) at some point in their lives.

Disorder is about excessive behavior, at least for me. If I have too much of anything then perhaps I am disordered to one degree to another.

Just my two cents and my perspective -- Compost away...

[reallyME]

I think I will not use "dysfunctional" nor "disordered"  I like Leah's term best...INJURED.

Many on here were indeed severely injured through no fault of their own.  This accounts for the issues that arise from time to time.

~Laura

[reallyME]

Ok when it comes to myself, I do not have a problem with being labeled, because a label is not me; it's merely a pointing out of a problem I have.  I just can separate the issues from myself as a person, I think.

I HAVE anger at times, but I am NOT anger.
I HAVE problems with codependency, but I'm not a codependent, fully
I HAVE problems with control issues, but I'm not a full-out controller

That's just how I see it about ME, personally

[Leah]

Ok, however, generalization based upon oneself is no good way to go, as is my understanding of life and living.

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Laura,

Because self-deception is an almost universal human trait (the issue is discussed in Gilbert's Stumbling on Happiness (see the Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Book list!), also, Robert Trivers at Rutgers is devoting the end of an illustrious career to exploring this fascinating concept), accurate self-diagnosis is not possible.  One may be certain that one is this or one is that, but unless a neutral third party determines this to be the case, one is quite likely to be wrong.  A fictional example of this deception:  Lake Wobegon (sp?) in Prairie Home Companion where "all children are above average."  (Prairie Home Companion is a public radio show in the United States--for all living outside the States.)

Best,

Richard

p.s.  I say "almost universal" because many depressed people seem to lack the trait.

[teartracks]

Hi Leah,

what is the Purpose of VESMB and to Whom exactly the board is for?

As far as I can recall, Dr. Grossman has never made a statement concerning the question you ask.  I don't recall anyone asking him directly either.  It has crossed my mind to ask a few times, but I haven't.  In my way of thinking, his making such a statement could easily end up having a negative effect concerning those who felt included or excluded from using the board.    This  is just my opinion.

Now.  You and God have made me aware that I have offended you by saying this:  Not saying it's easy, just suggesting that staying aware of the fact that it is a board for disordered people to express themselves is wise.

God has forgiven me.  I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me too.  Would you consider forgiving me, Leah?

Sincerely,

tt

[Leah]

Dear TT,

With sincerity of heart, I do forgive you TT.

I ask your forgiveness, for my action of posting it, midst sadness of heart.

God Bless You.

Love, Leah x

[reallyME]

Hey Bean,

I do agree with what you said.  Come to think of it, I remember a prison experiment that I learned about in Sociology class not long ago, where some people were picked at random to be prisoners and guards in a mock experiment.

They were people from all walks of life.

The purpose of the experiment was to watch how they all acted and believe me, it was A MESS!  The people playing the guard roles became very violent and the prisoners began believing they really were imprisoned and had no way out...there is much more to it, but I'm not sure at the moment where the link would be.

Point is, people are people...their pasts have something to do with things but, overall, at some point, a person just reacts or behaves as he/she does, because that is who they are.

Am I understanding rightly on this?

Dr G:  Yes, I hear what you say about self-diagnosing...the thing is, I've been tested several times in a couple different places, and the final diagnosis on me was a mild dysthymia, or, depression which the psychiatrist said was "situational from being married to a narcissist"

My Bible says to pull the board out of my eye SO I CAN SEE CLEARLY to remove the mote from my brother's.  I see this as going against the "judge not lest ye be judged" thing that people choose to use to stop others from pointing out flaws in them.  The Bible doesn't say NOT to judge.  It says, judge with a right judgement.  I feel that is what I do on this board...and not generally aiming toward people but at situations.  Yes?

[dandylife]

This is "Obedience to Authority" by Stanley Milgram. I was just holding the original book in my hand earlier today!

Fascinating experiment.

dandylife

[reallyME]

Yes, Milgram's Experiment indeed!

fascinating and horrifying all at the same time, Dandylife