Shameless

[Certain Hope]

From the What Makes N's Tick blog (it's a great book, by the way)...


Since normal people play the same mental games narcissists do, unknowing what they know, deluding themselves, and reasoning backwards, how can you tell when you are dealing with a pathological personality?

I'll never forget the moment I realized the significant difference between people you should just shake your head at and those you should be wary of.

It was a little thing, a man I had known for years in my place of work, a man I had previously liked and considered a friend. But the moment resonated. I found myself stunned and gaping at him, as if seeing him for the first time, while that little voice in my head said, "He's shameless! Things have gotten so bad 'around here,' and he is so spineless that he's gone all the way to shameless!"

Reeking of false pity for "the old guy" he said he "didn't want to get into trouble," this viper said, "I don't want to sound, but ..." and then proceeded to BE what he claimed he didn't even wish to SEEM like.

But that wasn't the worst part. The worst part was that his act stunk. It was so transparent that there was nothing to see through anymore. The guy was as naked as Adam and Eve but too shameless to put a fig leaf on it like they did.

That alarm proved to be well-founded. The man was capable of anything and had been a troublemaker who liked to come between others all along.

But what I first noticed was his shamelessness. Like the Emperor in His New Clothes, this guy just expected me to refrain from calling him on this bullshit. In other words, this guy didn't care that I saw him naked: he just got in my face with it to make me pretend I didn't. (On the twisted premise that a thing ain't wrong if you don't get caught and called on it.)

Note how similar this is to a narcissist's pathological lying, when they tell you something they know you know isn't true. They don't want to make you believe it - they just want to cram this lie down your throat = make you accept it in silence as though it's true (to avoid conflict).

At that moment I sensed that a crucial moral boundary had been passed and that the man was depraved. The future proved it. To my shock, he proved capable of things I'd never have believed of him.

Since then, this tenet to watch out for the bad sign of shamelessness has always proved true in my experience.

Give me the man or woman who, caught with their pants down, is ashamed. Beware the man or woman who, caught with their pants down, flashes you the moon.

[Gaining Strength]

I saw the title of your thread and couldn't wait to read it, thinking, "Boy, I wish I were shameless," meaning I wish I weren't laden with debilitating shame.  WRONG.  Shameless is something I would never want to be - even if I could give up the devastation left behind by the shame.

The line that struck me the most was this:

Note how similar this is to a narcissist's pathological lying, when they tell you something they know you know isn't true. They don't want to make you believe it - they just want to cram this lie down your throat = make you accept it in silence as though it's true (to avoid conflict).

I've never understood why my mother, who lies pathologically, tries to deny her lies when I have just confronted her with incontrovertable proof of her lie.  Your post helps me get it.  Nobody is going to say or do anything to counter her control - truth be damned.

[Certain Hope]

Yup, GS... exactly. Truth be damned.

Hugs,
Carolyn

[Hopalong]

Oh.
My brother.

Brrrrr.

Hops

[axa]

I recall clearly an incident with XN and the thought that went through my head was "He has NO SHAME"...............I do understand

axa

[Gabben]

Hi Carolyn,

Thanks for this. What Makes a N Tick is a good book.  I have enjoyed  it and found some helpful tools.

The redflag of shamelessness has not really crossed my mind. I can't say that Rachel (N saint) ever really showed shameless type behavior. She seemed more bent on hiding and defending her false image.

If there was shameless behavior on her part was in the form of boundary crossing, shamless boundary crossing with all of her clients and patients. She seemed to have no shame about using and abusing others for her needs; of course it was thinly veiled as service or fellowship.

Gabben

[Leah]

Note how similar this is to a narcissist's pathological lying, when they tell you something they know you know isn't true.   They don't want to make you believe it - they just want to cram this lie down your throat = make you accept it in silence as though it's true (to avoid conflict).

Truly, that is what my mother, who lies pathologically, would do when denying her lies, after I have just expressed the relevant (obvious) evidence and knowledge appertaining to her lie(s).  I had always had to accept with silence and watch from afar, out in the cold, with a heavy heart.  Bewilderment was my middle name.

Likewise, I too have gleaned much knowledge and insight, from the book, and also, from the blog/website.

Never ceases to amaze me personally, the multitudinous level of life experiences -- all the same.

Leah x