Author Topic: Relationships while working through it all  (Read 4516 times)

Anonymous

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Relationships while working through it all
« on: July 27, 2004, 12:48:20 AM »
Hi all,
I haven't posted for a while because I've been working through painful issues at home. I need some insight if it exists.

I've been married for almost 20 years. Things have always been good or ok, but never quite wonderful.

I recently found the term to describe my parents- they are both Ns. I confronted them 3 weeks ago and it feels good, no contact from them since, but I'm feeling much freer.

On the home front, things have been going downhill. Earlier this year I finally found my voice to tell H I was tired of playing second fiddle to his life. We married when he was in the military. When we met I was a very independent, outspoken, self-assured person. He seemed to love that. But after getting married he let me know that certain things were expected of me as wife of an officer. I wanted to make him happy, as was my way in relationships and it seemed to make sense. So I morphed somewhat to be acceptable. Don't get me wrong, I was not a terrible person, just slightly rebellious, didn't like to be told how to act because I had broken away from controlling parents who always did that. But as an officer's wife, I learned to act the role properly. Then I got pregnant and felt the only way to be a parent was to be like my parents and go to church and raise my kids in church and act the way they told me to at church. Plus, getting pregnant seemed to draw me back under N parents control - I thought I needed their support because H was always TDY. So for 15 years I have been compliant, behaving, etc. Situations have come up where I degressed and H reminded me that was not the way I should act as a mother. I felt the need to not be rebellious mostly for my children's safety. If I was not completely in control of my senses and on top of everything at all times, my kids would not be safe. H traveled 25-50% of the time while the kids were younger. Only recenlty has that stopped.

All these years I have hidden myself from myself to be happy. I suppressed my desires to have independent thought. Even when it made me very unhappy, I did it H's way because it was easier than doing battle. We always thought it was so amazing that we were so compatible, always agreed on everything.

Now, as I have worked through the issues from my N parents and early years, I am starting to see how I gave up myself to be what H wanted. I have only recently had the nerve to start disagreeing with him. The arguments have begun. He says I am making life difficult, he says he doesn't know how to act around me anymore. He says he feels like he's walking on eggshells around me because he's afraid I will disagree with him and he doesn't know what is the right thing to do anymore.

The truth is that this started the day I put my foot down (about 6 months ago) and told him I would not sit at home waiting on him to do all the things he wants to do in his life anymore while I watch my own life pass me by. Our kids are getting older and we are able to do more things without them, but as it happens in many families, we haven't had a lot of couples time and don't really know how to have fun together - alone. Plus since he traveled so much, most of his free time was away from us and he could pursue his interests while I stayed home with the kids.

We've tried to discuss all of this. He keeps taking vacations without us every year for over 10 years, even though I protest, because "I let him" in his words. He was gone so much and it killed me that he would go away from another week or more without us to spend time with his family. He didn't want us along because he wanted time alone with his brothers. He said we would only get in the way. So he traveled to them - 2500 miles away. They never came here because their wives would not allow it. I didn't want to be the b**** wife he said the others were so I felt I had to give in. But at the end of the time away I was fit to be tied. I was left alone to tend to 3 kids while he got a good non-parent break that was not required by work. I never got away - there was no time or money left for me. Year after year it got worse, I got worse and really threw a fit, but he kept going anyway.

Now he doesn't travel much and I have started speaking up for myself. He says he doesn't know how to handle it. He backs me for claiming independence from N parents, but says it's different with him. Of course it is! It's stuff he has to give up for me. That is not something he has ever had to do. He says it is very difficult because I'm the one who changed. Of course I changed - I've changed many times to keep the peace with whomever I am in a relationship with. I'm sick and tired of it. He knew me before when I stood up for myself and he fell in love with that person. But through the years he has gotten to know how to push the buttons my N parents pushed to get me to comply. It makes his life more enjoyable. As I discuss this with my T, she asks if it makes me happy. I say NO and she says I need to start thinking about what makes me happy. I am happy when those around me are happy, but I want to start discovering my interests again also. But if something make me happy, but creates a battle at home - is it really worth it?

I've discovered that H and I appear to be so compatible because he has a persuasive way that makes me give in. When he wants something, he tells me how great it will be. I say I don't think so and he says of course it will, because of this and this and that. Eventually I give in because it's not worth the fighting- I can't stand to fight! My N dad yelled all the time and I hate it. H really is a convincing person. Nothing has been very damaging or distructive except to my ego or embarrassment, but it hasn't always been what I wanted. He convinces me I will like it if I try it. This goes for kind of cars, to types of sports. It's always the things he wants and I'm adventursome so I try it and he convinces me this is what is good. I've always known what I felt, but he convinces me what I feel is not really what I feel. It's kind of like the thoughts some guys have about when a girl says no, she doesn't really mean no, she doesn't know what she really wants. That's the feeling it's been for 17 years. He convinced me to play golf, I wanted to like it but I suck at it. He takes me to play with 3 other guys and I can't hardly hit the ball. They all laugh at me, I drink some beer, laugh along to hide the embarrassment, hate myself and try to make the best of it. We have spent 4 anniversaries palying golf and I hate it! But it's what he wanted to do. I drove very large SUVs for years because he didn't want the minivan image anymore, until I totaled the last one because it had steering problems. He owns a huge truck now and I refuse to drive it. I finally got the minivan back after I set my foot down a few months back and demanded I get a car big enough for the 3 kids without their knees in their chins. Now he says it was a good decision, but at the time I brought it up, he actually thought I lost my mind - him in a minivan again!!!!

Now I have finally found my voice again and since I dare use it, he says I'm being difficult. I know all the technical terms for this - changing the balance in the family, etc. But here's the problem: He says he's not sure how or if he can change to accept me finding me again. He says he is set in his ways, has been used to me the way I've been and doesn't think he has the ability to see things differently. I know I've morphed a couple times in this marriage and if needed to continue the marriage, I will probably have to morph back into the compliant one again and give up what I really want out of life to support his desires. This isn't healthy for me, but is for the family. I've survived for almost 45 years by giving in to N parents and letting H run things. Is it right for me to ask for a voice again? I know the real answer here on this board is YES, but since I've given in for so many years, can there really be a remedy? I love H but I'm starting to learn to love myself again. I gave that up 17 years ago to follow his life.

Has anyone else been in this situation? Is there a solution? Are we too far gone to remedy it? I'm so sick of the arguments. All I have to do is disagree now and he gets very angry. I guess he thinks I'm challenging him and that doesn't work for him. He has agreed to seek counseling, but wanted to go to my T since she already had the background and he wouldn't have to cover it all again. He said she could help him understand how to deal with me. She told him it would be a conflict of interest. I told him I trusted her, but if she saw him also I would have to go find someone else because I need my own space in all of this. Where will I find peace? I really just want to be a whole person again. Is that really too much to ask? I feel I have given up so much for so many - to N parents for fear they would kill me, to H to support him, to kids to be a good mother. Now I only want a little bit of peace in my life. I don't really have much more of me to give anyore. I feel used up.

Ellie

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Relationships while working through it all
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2004, 12:54:35 AM »
That was me- Ellie.

I got logged out while typing - I know - too much talking. I've heard it all my life. Too many words - nothing to way is what N parents always said. H just nods off to sleep. Here I can write what I want whether it gets read or not. :wink:

jessie

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Relationships while working through it all
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2004, 06:35:13 AM »
This is a difficult one because the marriage was initially based on a lie - you weren't who he thought you were, and you didn't know who you were.
but a marriage that has lasted this long must have some good in it and is worth fighting for.
go for couples therapy - if it doesnt work at least you will know you've tried, and a good therapist can help you to separate if that is what it comes to.
it is unethical for him to see your therapist - I hope he can see that now.
i wish you well.

Anonymous

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Relationships while working through it all
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2004, 10:06:23 AM »
Ellie,

Your husband has taken a huge advantage in this marriage. It's his personal empire and everyone in it is his loyal, unquestioning subject. And you went along with it for 20 years (boundary issue). As you now know, you pretty much sacrificed your own life. Now that you want to reclaim your life, he is trying to make you "go back" to the old, compliant wife. I don't think you can go back there anymore; nor can you change him.

All I can tell you is: Marriage Counseling. I see no other way to deal with it. Your husband is far too controlling for you to deal with on your own. A therapist is needed to provide authority and intervention.

If he is as anxious as he claims, he will see a marital therapist. Your T can give you referrals. His wish to see your therapist is another attempt at control.

bunny

Anonymous

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Relationships while working through it all
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2004, 10:38:18 AM »
Hi bunny,
Yes H has taken advantage of his freedom and my compliancy. After writing this it dawned on me that when I disagree with him, he DOES take it as a challenge and he is extremely competitive. He has always said he will win, no matter what.

He was very athletic, very good at everything. It is hard for him to accept that I am not a natural in all of his interests. He sees it as I do not want to be with him. But if we can only do things together if they are his interest, and I am not good at the stuff he likes, therefore I do not like those things, where are we now? He has put on 100 lbs since we married. His physical limitations are now so that golf, other minor activities are what he's comfortable with. I have begged him for years to take off the weight, it gets in the way of everything, and I mean everything! He once told me he couldn't stand the thought that I might someday have my mother's body. My mom is about 35 lbs overweight. We're all short people so we do not carry it well, including H. Therefore, I had made every attempt to keep my weight and shape from when we married. I do it for me first, then for him. It takes work, commitment, sacrifice. And since I'm pre-meno now, it's really taking a workout! But I am determined. I feel like he challenged me early in the marriage and kinda threatened me to keep my shape. Our marriage has never been based on 'what's good for the goose is good for the gander'. It's always been about what he wants.

P.S. He kept the weight off in the military when they said he had to. But he tells me it's just too hard and impossible.

Anonymous

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Relationships while working through it all
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2004, 10:11:37 PM »
Ellie,

Maybe your H will go to a marriage counselor if he thinks he can "win" in front of the therapist. It's one way to get him in the door. A good therapist will be alerted to his narcissism as soon as she hears he takes vacations where his wife and kids aren't invited.

bunny

Ellie

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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2004, 01:29:44 AM »
I don't really think of H as an N. I'm not sure what is going on actually. It is so easy to see both my parents in this category. They fit it to a T. I once dated a guy for 5 years that was extreme Destructive N. He actually told me he would kill someone in front of me to prove he was in control of everyone he knew. That was when I ran fast and hard. It all ended in a major confrontation with my neighbor holding a phone to call the cops if it got out of control.

But H is different. That is what drew me to him. He was kind, compassionate, understanding, loving, caring, fun, adventurous, loves to travel, loves the things I love. We met on a vacation cruise. Since we married he has gotten to do all the things we both love, I've been at home raising the children.

I guess I  was an enabler from training my N parents gave me - to always give in to everyone or I would not be loved, to comply to be accepted, and to care about everyone else's feelings because mine had no reason to be acknowledged.

After getting married and moving far away from friends and family I was left alone for over 50% of the time in a very remote place because he went TDY so much. When he was home I just wanted us to be happy and giving in to his wants was a way to accomplish this. I guess I thought I would someday get my chance at happiness.

H doesn't think he has any problems. He thinks he bends over backwards trying to please me. The problem is that the things he does that he thinks should make me happy are things that are foremost in his bundle of what makes him happy. He thinks that since I gave in so much in the past, these things are what I focus on. I tell him over and over again what makes me happy, but he just doesn't seem to hear. Or lacking creativity he goes back to the old standards of things we've done over and over again, thinking that should be good enough. I keep telling him I want to explore new activities and he agrees that would be good, but wants me to discover what we should do and plan it all. I'm burnt out from planning everything for years. If I have to play cruise director one more time, I'd rather do nothing. I've told him this many times, but he just keeps asking what we should do. Does he really not hear me or am I dealing with N behavior?

We met traveling and we both love it. He has had the opportunity through the years to travel all over the world. In the past 8 years I have left my state 5 times. Prior to that I think I left the state 8 times in 5 years, mostly to visit his family. Prior to that I left the state 4 times in 4 years. So he got in all the adventures he wanted and I am still wanting and all he can say is that is how it turned out - he can't do anything about it.

We're trying to decide what to do for our upcoming anniversary. He suggests things we've done in the past - dinner and a show. I wanted to go somewhere fun like the beach for our 1st anniversary but because he traveled so much it could not be fit in. He went to Hawaii a month before our 1st anniversary and Okinawa right after our 1st annivesary.

I'm still waiting on a romantic anniversary and he's happy with dinner and a show. Last year I got a golf game with him and 3 other guys, we went to a spa then to dinner. He says he'd be happy doing that again. Then he got frustrated when I reminded him I didn't like golf.

We just don't seem to be able to communicate at all.

Thanks for letting me vent. When I try to tell him how I need change in my life he gets angry and says I'm accusing him of doing everything wrong. If I disagree he says I'm attacking. He asks why I'm depressed and I say things like what I said above and he says I won't stop living in the past and keep blaming him for my unhappiness.

After reading all of this I question 'Am I the sick one?' Am I the one causing all the problems just as he says. And yet, I can't seem to get a foot in the door to enjoying life again. I feel so trapped!!!!!

I tried to find out why he said he could put himself in my N parents shoes and understand why my parents were so upset - that I had been so afraid of them for so long, and was now stepping out on my own and letting them know they had no control over me. He said it must have shook their world and they would of course be very angry. I asked if he could put himself in my shoes and understand why I was hurting so much. He said of course he couldn't, he had not lived in a family like mine and only knew love and acceptance. I asked why he never got angry with them and take up for me after their abusive actions. He said he refused to let himself get emotional with the in-laws. I asked why he didn't take up for himself when they accused us both of abusing our children. He said they were crazy and didn't deserve his time. I broke down and told him I had always wanted someone who cared enough for me to take up for me and try to protect me. He just shook his head and said my parents were not worth his effort.

gardener

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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2004, 09:47:13 AM »
:?:  Is your H very organised in his life as an officer? I know that military personnel often seem to run their families like little units and see their wives as lower ranking and subservient. I know the military life & lived it for about 20 years. Husband always off yet again, training, posted. Gone for weeks or months. It's a very lonely life to live and more than once I've felt I was living like a single mum with none of the freedoms. Our children don't remember him being around much at all.

H doesn't think he has any problems. He thinks he bends over backwards trying to please me. The problem is that the things he does that he thinks should make me happy are things that are foremost in his bundle of what makes him happy. He thinks that since I gave in so much in the past, these things are what I focus on. I tell him over and over again what makes me happy, but he just doesn't seem to hear. Or lacking creativity he goes back to the old standards of things we've done over and over again, thinking that should be good enough. I keep telling him I want to explore new activities and he agrees that would be good, but wants me to discover what we should do and plan it all. I'm burnt out from planning everything for years. If I have to play cruise director one more time, I'd rather do nothing. I've told him this many times, but he just keeps asking what we should do. Does he really not hear me or am I dealing with N behavior?

This is familiar, I'm still waiting for a family holiday which we never had due to anything and everything the military could come up with. Our children are all now well past that stage and off doing their own thing.
(We didn't get a honeymoon either).

My daughter jokes that if she can earn enough she'll buy me a house by the sea to make up for all the things we (myself and the children) all missed, bless her.
 I've also asked for us to do things together and he seems O.K, but expects me to join in with his chosen sport. I tried this only once and he was so competitive that I left the sports building in tears....about two weeks after our wedding. (It was a game of squash)
Maybe their lack of creativity is due partly to the fact that in the military as a serving member you have all your life organised for you by the people in charge. You really hand your life over to others to sort out.

I've now begun to separate time for myself and I am rediscovering the things that kept me happy before I married. I often feel I lost who I was
within weeks of the wedding and moving into military housing. You become just part of that huge machine.

Did you know that, historically, we were called 'camp followers'? (we do what we're told and go where we're lead) (we're the support department)

Try maybe to find some time that's just yours and a piece of paper and write down all the things that made you happy as a child when you had those moments to enjoy. Start a book of ideas just for you. Mine began with all the things I've been longing to do and hoped would one day happen,(but didn't).

I suppose we are a bit like butterflies just emerging, all of us, takes time to open the cocoon and then more time to get used to the wings.

Hope you find yourself again soon.  :)    gardener

Anonymous

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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2004, 09:53:19 AM »
Quote from: Ellie
I asked why he didn't take up for himself when they accused us both of abusing our children. He said they were crazy and didn't deserve his time. I broke down and told him I had always wanted someone who cared enough for me to take up for me and try to protect me. He just shook his head and said my parents were not worth his effort.


Mayday, mayday! Ellie: Your husband admits that he has no empathy for your plight. Your feelings do not motivate him into action. It's all about his feelings. He is too scared and self-involved to even stand up for you. Yes, I said scared.

I won't even go into his other behaviors but they reflect the same thing.

Here is a book that I think would help you tremendously. It describes your exact situation of telling him what would work, while he keeps doing what doesn't work. Read this book. You can get it from the library.

"How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together" by Susan Page.

bunny

Ellie

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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2004, 10:54:16 AM »
Gardener,
Your input is right on the money, but we've been out of the military for 12 years! He has a career with defense contracting and is in a very high position within the company. His position puts him in constant contact and working relationship with high ranking officers though. I have told him he continues to be the manager role at home and he disagrees. He sometimes barks orders and doesn't get why we don't respond to him in that mode. He's not military and is in a role to think independently. In fact he is a service organzation to the military.

Bunny,

Quote
Mayday, mayday! Ellie: Your husband admits that he has no empathy for your plight. Your feelings do not motivate him into action. It's all about his feelings. He is too scared and self-involved to even stand up for you. Yes, I said scared.


This is what scares me the most. I am petrified to find that hiding in sheeps clothing, I have myself back in another N relationship. I only wish it was that I have taught him to be this way, but I have read enough to believe that the empathy part is high on the list of taell-tale signs. The reason we got into the discussion is that I was trying to find out his level of empathy. I have always wondered why this man who acts like he loves me in so many ways, cannot feel bad for me when I am sick. Everytime I have been very ill he has gotten mad, like I caused the illness on purpose. Once we were on vacation, my youngest got a stomach flu, I had to clean the car up after his projectile bout, and the next day I was on the couch with the stomach flu - both ends type. H got mad that he now had to cook for the kids, get them to bed and pack us up to go home - all the things he depended on me to do. That day was an eye-opener to what my life had become. And from then on, when I get sick, he ignores me and expects me to continue with the chores. Don't get me wrong, he covers real good! The first day I am ill he tells me to lie on the couch and he will take care of everything. But as the day progresses, nothing gets done and I find myself taking care of the kids as they come to me because he is ignoring them. By the next day he has lost the caring attitude and expects me to be back to nomal. This has happened so many times that in the past 2 years I have found myself starting to get angry if he gets sick because that is the way he treated me so many times. He was away for a week for business once and upon returning had caught a little, and I mean little cold. He walked in the door and said, I feel lousy after the plane flight, I'm all stuffed up, I'm going to lie down and nap the rest of the evening. I have 3 kids and had run all over town all week getting them places and keeping up with the daily grind. He had been away on business, meals cooked for him, bed made for him, etc and because he had a little cold, he felt he could take the rest of the evening off while I cooked and kept up with the kids. I'm not sure my reaction, but it was not pleasant and soon he was in the kitchen helping.

I will find the book. I need some suggestions at this point. I'm almost ready to give up because I'm so tired of trying to get it right all these years. But I really do still love him - even at the 300 lbs he's now achieved. He says he will not leave, that he still loves me and is dedicated to the marriage. But neither of us are happy. To tell you the truth I feel as though he keeps trying to do things to make me happy for only one thing - he wants sex and thinks if he can get me over all of this, he will get what he wants. The way it has happened in the past is he will try all kinds of things to win me back til he gets me to bed, then after - it's 100% back to the way he always is. It's as though he ranks the whole relationship on whether he's getting some or not. I have lost all interest since he gave up on trying to curb the weight. I just can't find anything that makes me passionate or crave him the way I used to, looking as he does now. We signed up for a 4 mile charity walk this weekend and the t-shirt sizes only go up to XL. He  said "that is descrimination - they don't think XXLs can walk 4 miles?" He said he would not look silly trying wear a t-shirt too small - but doesn't care that he looks like he's carrying quads and breathes like someone having an asthma attach all the time. He has to put deoderant under his belly and the flaps on his sides to stop the odor. BUT - he says he can't take off the weight because he just doesn't want to anymore. AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGG!

Ellie

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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2004, 10:58:40 AM »
Sorry to be so long with my posts. I do not have any close friends to spill out to. H has not made having friendships pleasant in the past so I gave up a long time ago. If I talked to a friend on the phone he got mad. If I had a friend over he got aggrevated that someone was in his house. He appears to have gotten past that behavior now, but I'm not sure how to go find firnds anymore. Plus he was gone so much that I never had time to nuture a friendship. But this is no different that N parents - they ran off all of my firends! I actually had a hard time getting bridesmaids for my wedding years ago. H had 6 guys he wanted to stand up with him. I had a sister and one good firend. And that is how the wedding looked - 6 on his side - 2 on mine.

gardener

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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2004, 07:46:26 AM »
:(  You can take the man out of the military, but not the military out of the man. From what you've written, he's not really left the life, just shifted sideways into a different uniform and office. There's something about the power they hold for so long that makes them feel they are still in charge even afterwards. There is a kind of mythical brotherhood thing going on with ex-military (they never quite leave it behind, it seems).
I stopped trying to make friends after our 8th or 9th posting. It just becomes too painful to keep saying goodbye just as you get to feel comfortable with someone. I saw many other wives go through the same, you just become disheartened after enough goodbyes.
I felt rather like a square peg in around hole....Jamming my 'corners' in to fit in with a life I'd no experience of at all and which came as a shock to the system. We Wives were referred to as W/O, which stands for wife of.... We weren't even allowed the dignity of our own full names.
H left the military 6 years ago and it feels as if I've fallen off the conveyor belt and realised I'm so much more than just a Wife of..... Now I'm back to writing and art and all the creative things I put off years ago, it takes a while to pull it all together but, Ellie, you can find your lost 'corners' too.
I came from a musical/artistic family and you can imagine how much of a culture shock it was for me to be landed in that alien world of the military.
My H was from a family where the military was their life almost.
What makes you happy? Keep writing and read back what you've said to yourself a few days later. You'll find pieces of you coming back, I'm sure.    

Hope some of this helps you feel you're not alone.   gardener.  :)

Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2004, 12:24:42 PM »
Ellie,

gardener has wise words! Keep posting here as much as you want. We'll listen.

bunny