Narcissism and Co-dependence

[SilverLining]

I had an "Aha" experience yesterday when I read a simple definition of Codependence by Ann Wilson Schaef.  The Codependent feels they have little intrinsic meaning of their own, so almost all of their meaning comes from outside.  They literally do not know where they end and others begin.  They use relationships the same way alcoholics use alcohol. 

This sure describes how my mother fits into my FOO.  I have a father who talks about nothing but himself, and a mother who talks about nothing but other people.  I guess opposites attract..  

It explains a lot of the history of my FOO.  My sister had trouble with her marriage a few years back, and my mother was right there in the middle, as if it was her own personal problem.  Her husband finally left, and his parting words to my sister were "I hope you enjoy being married to your parents".

In previous posts I've mentioned the preoccupation with report cards and other "scores".  She always treated these things as if they were her own performance.  And there was never any reference back to how it might matter to me and my siblings as separate individuals.  From her point of view, we weren't separate individuals.

So it seems another piece of my puzzle comes more clear.  Has anybody else found that Narcissism seems to attract or create codependence from others in the family system?


 

   

[Ami]

That is such an insightful revelation. I can see how *I* did not have enough of my own core, so I "lived inside" other people.Now, I am develping my own core and feel much more ,at peace.
 I understand what you mean.
 Thank you for this thread. It is very profound!             Love  Ami

[Gabben]

Hi tjr,

Don't you love those "aha" moments!

Yes -- just recently I reflected on how in my relationship with the N saint therapist I was acting the co-dependent role beautifully.

I was feeding off of her popularity. But that was only about 20% of the dynamic between her and myself.  I was also really under the disilusion that she was good and super loving as she seemed to act the part so well.

I really wanted to heal and be well which means facing my ugly parts too.

Since this N was not a "safe person" to explore myself with I could not be comfortable around her unless I was feeding her image by affirming it with my co-dependent role.

But as I began to grow and heal I began to see her for who she really was. That was the real turning point when she kept trying to erase me or mold me to fit back into her mold, but I would not -- I refused to be or act the co-dependent role with her anymore and that pissed her off.

As I was growing and really trying to reach the N parts of my own self, the parts where I was not affirmed as a child, she only seemed to get colder and more distant...the N cannot accept themselves...when they are around others that can accept themselves, good and bad, the N's get envious and slam us.

Here is an article I found:

Hope this helps.

http://www.alanrappoport.com/Co-Narcissism%20Article.pdf

Co-alcoholics unconsciously
collaborate with alcoholics, making excuses
for them and not confronting them about
their problem in an assertive way. The same
is true of the co-dependent person, who
makes excuses for the other’s dependency
and fills in for him or her as necessary. The
wife of an abusive husband who takes the
blame for her partner’s behavior is another
example of taking responsibility for
someone else’s problems. Both narcissism
and co-narcissism are adaptations that
children have made to cope with narcissistic
parenting figures.

[sunblue]

Tjr:

Your post was so insightful....Sometimes I think the co-dependency is as big a problem as the N in the family.  In my FOO, the roles are reversed.  My dad is extremely co-dependent and my mom and sis are the Ns.  The entire hemisphere revolves around my Nmom---at least, so she believes.  But I think part of the reason she can maintain this sense of entitlement is because my dad has enabled her for so, so many years.  He is so co-dependent he can't make a decision on his own.  He even has to get my Nmom to tell him which route to take when driving home, what clothes he should wear....you name it.  It is so sad and sometimes a bit embarrassing.  His whole life has revolved around her....always giving into her...never saying a single word that she might interpret as a criticism or disagreement.  He jumps at me when I say something she doesn't like.  The co-dependency is just as severe as the narcissism.  Thus, no parents at all.

But perhaps you are right when you say it is about not having meaning in his own life.  My dad did not have it easy growing up, in fact, he had it pretty rough.  He lost his dad when he was 2 and his older brother who became a kind of a dad when he was young.  His mother was extraordinarly stern and tough and they never had much of anything.  I try very hard to keep those things in mind.  But I also know that had he chosen differently, had he chosen a wife who had been kinder, more encouraging, more supportive and more loving, he would have had a very different kind of life.  But my mom just beats him down...always has.  She has no respect for him....largely because he had some bad luck with his career, something she's never in her life had to worry about.  She has no clue how the real world is because she's always been frankly lucky.  She's been with one company her whole life and was treated very, very well by boss.  My dad was not as lucky...but he has always been a very hard worker and someone who loves his family (at least his wife) and would have done anything for her.  So it breaks my heart to see how she has treated him.  I wish he would have made different choices....

But I guess Ns need partners who are co-dependent in order to survive and maintain their narcissistic ways.  It can be heart wrenching.....But I do think being raised in these kinds of families, there is a tendency for the non-N members to think of others first and foremost.  We tend to live for others or think of their needs first.  It is hard to break that cycle.

[Certain Hope]

So it seems another piece of my puzzle comes more clear.  Has anybody else found that Narcissism seems to attract or create codependence from others in the family system?

Yes.

Ex-Co here, tjr... trained to be devoid of individuality, but simply to mirror someone else.

Funny (peculiar) thing is... how utterly naked I felt when finally, mid-40's, I met a man who didn't require that I be absorbed into his identity.
In fact, not only did he not require it, he didn't encourage that sort of enmeshment or even appreciate it... lol.
It's amazing how much angry pride can be stirred in a Co-dep whose umbilical cord has suddenly been severed.
But he survived  (so far)

Great post, tjr.. thanks!

Carolyn

[sunblue]

Certain....


Yes, so much of your post rings true....It's kind of a scary revelation when you realize you really don't have much of a self left when you take the Ns in your life out of the equation.....Your brain is trained to think of everything in terms of those people...that when they are removed from the situation, it seems you're not left with much.  It's like, "Who am I?  What do I want out of life?  What is my personality like?"  Everything about is seems so wrapped up in the needs and wants and opinions of the Ns....

The other thing I find is that people who haven't had to incur the wrath of an N tend to be very critical when it comes to evaluating you on the basis of "independence."  They regard it is an incredible weakness, personality or character fault....Sometimes I feel like screaming, "Hey, it's not all my fault....Look at how I was raised....how I was taught to think and behave?"

Does any of this make any sense...

[Certain Hope]

Certain....


Yes, so much of your post rings true....It's kind of a scary revelation when you realize you really don't have much of a self left when you take the Ns in your life out of the equation.....Your brain is trained to think of everything in terms of those people...that when they are removed from the situation, it seems you're not left with much.  It's like, "Who am I?  What do I want out of life?  What is my personality like?"  Everything about is seems so wrapped up in the needs and wants and opinions of the Ns....

Sunblue,

Yes, exactly. Over 15 years ago, a counselor asked me - "but what do you want?"  ... and the only answer I could muster related to how my husband at the time might find healing and change to be a suitable father and mate.  The very idea that I might want something for myself, out of myself, was totally foreign to me. Finally, I did make the decision to leave that marriage, only to enter into another reationship - this time, with a full-blown N... still absolutely clueless about why I was unable to make better choices and feeling like it must be just my role in life to try to be strong for someone who was so very weak, but unable to show that weakness. That was what I'd been trained for... in every relationship, beginning with my parents.

The other thing I find is that people who haven't had to incur the wrath of an N tend to be very critical when it comes to evaluating you on the basis of "independence."  They regard it is an incredible weakness, personality or character fault....Sometimes I feel like screaming, "Hey, it's not all my fault....Look at how I was raised....how I was taught to think and behave?"

Does any of this make any sense...

Sun, These people who are reacting so critically to you... well, why would they have such a strong reaction, if they weren't improperly enmeshed with you in the first place?  I mean, who do they think they are?! 
It's my view that they'd accept and love you just as you are, if there weren't something about you which triggers their own pride and fear.
So I hope that the next time you get that sort of response from another, you will remember that there's something very wrong in that person's life or he/she would not be so eager to label you in such a negative fashion.
Weakness is often in the eye of the beholder.

In fact, I think it's the truly weak person who is constantly trying to convince others that he's mighty and powerful, instead of just relating to others as equals.

Carolyn

[SilverLining]

My codependence has been more directed at organizations rather than individuals.  Coming out of the FOO, I was a ripe candidate for any boss or organization who would give me approval.  It led me to some poor choices, at least in terms of conventional success. 

With what I have learned in the past few months, a psychological history of the FOO comes into focus.  My mother had to deal with an alcoholic father.  She graduates from high school as the class valedictorian (there's that emphasis on grades).  For some reason she did not go to college, even though offered a full scholarship.   A couple of years later she's doing clerical work at a corporation and along comes my covert N father.  He's at his inflationary N best as he's just starting what is sure to be a brilliant scientific career.  My mother is a perfect low level person to be "rescued".  To her he may have appeared (even if unconsciously)  a person with the "strong self" she lacked.

It all works okay for a few years, but then things start falling apart for them in their 30's and the entire family pays the price.  I now see the history of dysfunction goes back at least 3 generations on both sides of the family.

Anyway, at this point I'm working on looking for the "silver lining" in all this so I changed my board name to match...  Thanks everybody for the replies and insights. 

[SilverLining]

But I guess Ns need partners who are co-dependent in order to survive and maintain their narcissistic ways.  It can be heart wrenching.....But I do think being raised in these kinds of families, there is a tendency for the non-N members to think of others first and foremost.  We tend to live for others or think of their needs first.  It is hard to break that cycle.

Hi Sunblue.  I think you are right.  There is sort of a weird symbiosis going on.  In my family, my N-ish father entirely relies on my mother for any sort of connection to the social world.  Without her, he would probably wander off into the mountains and starve.  But then she relies on him for some sort of N-ish self integrity.  It really is a strange case of opposites attracting.  Sadly for most of their time together they haven't had the self knowledge to figure out how it works and use the relationship for personal improvement.  In their 70's they sort of have a working detente, but the animosity is not far below the surface, I believe.

And we the offspring get trained to think of their needs first as a survival necessity.   

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Silver Lining     Just wanted to thank you for this thread and let you know that I really like your new nickname and the attitude which accompanies it.
As you've said, this dysfunctional stuff goes back multiple generations... and for me, as well, it's definitely time to break the cycle and not waste another moment traveling that well worn rut.  Way to go!

Carolyn

[wiltay]

Lise, it's been a long time since I've talked to you!  (I think we have both changed a bit in the meantime, what do you think? lol) What you've written here is bouncing off my own thoughts.  We have both had very similar experiences with Saintly Ns.  I'm starting to see that Ns and Vs(voiceless co-deps) are victims of the same type of N parenting who have simply chosen different coping strategies to win the parents love and achieve a sense of self-worth.  A N parent of course has no true sense of self to begin with and thinks the child is merely an extension of themselves.  They squash  individuality whenever it occurs by denying love to the child for being self-expressive.  Conversely the NP rewards the child with love when the child is totally compliant and selfless. The V child tries to get the love by moving heaven and earth to please, but often(not always!) falls short and then feels worthless.  Any and all sense of self derives from pleasing, whereas self-expression means the cold emptiness of outer space without love.
 
    The situation is the same for the future N, except the child's response is to invent a fictitious self that IS perfect and therefore always lovable.  The false self is tailorr-made to the parents' wishes, just as the Vs pleasing is.  They are different strategies to accomplish the same thing--to feel self-worth.  The N  however has to invent a self out of whole cloth and constantly maintain the fiction lest the truth be discovered.  Any threat to their perceived perfection will instigate immediate attack.  Sound familiar?

Bill

Hi tjr,

Don't you love those "aha" moments!

Yes -- just recently I reflected on how in my relationship with the N saint therapist I was acting the co-dependent role beautifully.

I was feeding off of her popularity. But that was only about 20% of the dynamic between her and myself.  I was also really under the disilusion that she was good and super loving as she seemed to act the part so well.

I really wanted to heal and be well which means facing my ugly parts too.

Since this N was not a "safe person" to explore myself with I could not be comfortable around her unless I was feeding her image by affirming it with my co-dependent role.

But as I began to grow and heal I began to see her for who she really was. That was the real turning point when she kept trying to erase me or mold me to fit back into her mold, but I would not -- I refused to be or act the co-dependent role with her anymore and that pissed her off.

As I was growing and really trying to reach the N parts of my own self, the parts where I was not affirmed as a child, she only seemed to get colder and more distant...the N cannot accept themselves...when they are around others that can accept themselves, good and bad, the N's get envious and slam us.

Here is an article I found:

Hope this helps.

http://www.alanrappoport.com/Co-Narcissism%20Article.pdf

Co-alcoholics unconsciously
collaborate with alcoholics, making excuses
for them and not confronting them about
their problem in an assertive way. The same
is true of the co-dependent person, who
makes excuses for the other’s dependency
and fills in for him or her as necessary. The
wife of an abusive husband who takes the
blame for her partner’s behavior is another
example of taking responsibility for
someone else’s problems. Both narcissism
and co-narcissism are adaptations that
children have made to cope with narcissistic
parenting figures.

[Ami]

Dear Bill,
 I can relate to  throwing away my self  to get love. I am realizing how powerful love IS to the human being. It is a type of food. People can go to extrodinary lengths for love, both good and bad lengths, of course.
 We,as children of N's went to "bad' lengths.
 My M did not want me to have a self. Ann, my counselor, said that my M wanted to be "safe', at all costs. *I* had to be denuded ,so she could be safe.
Shame was a  tool . Shame hurts ,terribly, as a chlld.I remember how I would feel when she raged,particularly if she was trying to "control" me by mocking me.
 I remember the hopeless, helpless feeling. I was all alone ,trying to use a child's resources to cope.
 I can see how I threw away myself( the WORST decision I ever made).
 I simply could not hold my own.
 I became voiceless, afraid of anger, afraid of rejection,filled with shame i.e. controllable---bleh.
 Then , I had a happy ending to the story and married an N(lol)
 The silver lining is that I am not an N, and that is a good silver lining(lol).
 Thanks for your post ,Bill.
                                                                                                              Love,  Ami
 

[gratitude28]

My codependence has been more directed at organizations rather than individuals.  Coming out of the FOO, I was a ripe candidate for any boss or organization who would give me approval.  It led me to some poor choices, at least in terms of conventional success.

Silver,
Throughout college and before, I took anyone's word at face value. Anything an author, teacher, or older student said I took as the final word on a topic. I had no idea what it was to analyze... to separate good from bad, right from wrong. In my house, we did not discuss. My dad is very intelligent (the Co-N) and we took his word for everything. My mother will defer to him in some but controlled every other aspect of the family existence. There are so many factors that went into devising their N/Co-N relationship... Dad came from a sick parental situation... married NM after a few months of knowing her. They have created some sick environment where all they do, as others have said here, is jusge and pick on other people.

This topic is always interesting to me and can, unfortunately, never be forced into a nutshell. It is nice to see that others share the same backgrounds, though... to see I have others who understand.

Love, Beth

[Gabben]

Hi Bill,

It is really good to see you here. I missed your input and support.

I'm starting to see that Ns and Vs(voiceless co-deps) are victims of the same type of N parenting who have simply chosen different coping strategies to win the parents love and achieve a sense of self-worth. 

This line that you wrote above is very interesting... Just this weekend I was telling my new spiritual director that N saint and myself are not that far apart which is what makes us good rivals; we are, or I was, (past-tense-I'm growing) loved starved but approaching our ways of fullfilment differently.

I like how you phrased it, "different copings strategies."

Any and all sense of self derives from pleasing, whereas self-expression means the cold emptiness of outer space without love.

This line reminds me of Randy and N saint You described him Randy so well; Randy was so cold and distant to you, if I recall, when you confronted him or began to be more real?

N saint dismissed me as dirt and slandered me to her important people whom she was feeding off of their praise. I was cast into outer space without love because I was daring to be myself, or express my real voice even if my real voice was one of that as a growing and wounded child seeking affirmation.

[wiltay]

I've been lurking off and on for a while Lise.  The board has changed a lot and (for the moment anyway) it's a lot more peaceful--lol.  I don't expect that to last forever though,anymore than it does in 3D.

This line reminds me of Randy and N saint You described him Randy so well; Randy was so cold and distant to you, if I recall, when you confronted him or began to be more real?

N saint dismissed me as dirt and slandered me to her important people whom she was feeding off of their praise. I was cast into outer space without love because I was daring to be myself, or express my real voice even if my real voice was one of that as a growing and wounded child seeking affirmation.

It really did become a parent-child relationship with us too.  I never thought it was until I realized Randy was not capable of anything else and I realized I was very susceptible to it.  But when I finally rejected the role he completely pulled back every last ounce of his friendship to punish me, just the way my F showed his disapproval by becoming  cold and remote.  Like my F he always had to be in control of everything.  If he couldn't do that he became extremely anxious and (inside) quite upset. It's all about the sense of self IMO.  Vs try to please to feel worthwhile(when they succeed), Ns  try to control to feel worthwhile (when they succeed). Vs and Ns are a perfect symbiotic combination.

Bill