Author Topic: Setting Limits on Me (GChild)  (Read 1593 times)

gratitude28

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Setting Limits on Me (GChild)
« on: March 24, 2008, 09:50:39 AM »
Hi All,
My sister, as I have written here before, has initiated a relationship with me for the past year or more. We talk on the phone a lot, she has come to visit, she talks to the kids a lot. Mostly it is very nice. I am happy we are closer, as we had been as kids.
Here is my one problem with it:
I am "limited" in what I can talk about with her. Parents are off-limits - unless she has a complaint. Her husband is a touchy subject. I can mention him, but not really ask any questions or she gets very touchy. (One example - last week he was at a conference where he apparently received an award. He did not tell my sister about the award - I am not sure how she found out about it. I said that it was funny he had forgotten to tell her and I really was not in any way being confrontational - it was a simple remark. She bristled and came up with an excuse.)
Another example on a subject - I said Target's groceries were expensive and she shot back that it was because I was used to Texas prices.... I go to various stores here, but their groceries are among the most expensive in the region. Why would she get irked with me over that?????
So... sometimes I don't even feel like stepping through the minefield that can be one of our conversations.
Do you all have this??????
She really is mostly kind. I do believe that. But I wish she would just start being honest with herself about what is what.
Thanks for any insight.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Juno

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Re: Setting Limits on Me (GChild)
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2008, 10:30:15 AM »
Some things to think about--

She sounds very unhappy.

Maybe her marriage isn't very solid.

Money sounds like a trigger point for her.

And, perhaps, though she loves you and wants closeness, you yourself may be a trigger for her because of the past, the FOO issues.

I work with someone who triggers me almost continuously.  It is a struggle for me to be normal and calm and civil around her.  Though I am right about the concrete problems she brings to this co-worker situation (she is extremely lazy and arrogant) the triggering is because of my FOO.  She reminds me of some very painful dynamics with my sister and my mother.  Stuff I am still very, very angry about. 

Your sister's touchiness during these conversations reminds me of my touchiness around this co-worker.  And I know for a fact why I am that way around my co-worker.  So..... maybe it is something along those lines with your sister.

Though I hope not, because those are some tough issues to deal with and cure.  Especially if she doesn't want to.

((((((Beth))))))))

Ami

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Re: Setting Limits on Me (GChild)
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 10:30:26 AM »
Dear Beth,
 I think your conversations( ready to "blow" at any minute-lol) are typical of people in denial. They are pushing down so many emotions  that any little comment can trigger their denial.
 This is the type of situation where people get in a"fight" about the weather(lol).
 I don't think you can make it ,better.
 Your best bet is NOT to go there when she is contentious, just drop the rope(IMO) You would be fighting about deeper things, but not  "facing  them'. It would not get resolved, so, WHY go there?
 That is how I see it, having been in that position many times.
  It must be very hard, though, Beth. I know that you value honestly ,but I don't think you will find it with your sister, for the most part.  I am sorry, Beth.             Love    Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

gratitude28

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Re: Setting Limits on Me (GChild)
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 10:35:55 AM »
Ami, Juno,
Thank you. I was hoping to see that others read the situation as I do. I am OK with her denial. Ami, but I don't feel I can have a strong relationship with her unless she stops lying to herself. I also believe she is unhappy (more like confused, in major denial) about her realtionship with her husband. There is so much weirdness with the whole relationship it would take a book to explain. Often, she will give me unsolicited advice on what my husband and I "need" to do together... and it is almost pathetic to me.
My sister can be arrogant - and it seems mostly in the areas where she feels most unsure about herself and her life.
Thanks for the input. Ami, I think you are right, that the spats cover deeper issues.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Iphi

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Re: Setting Limits on Me (GChild)
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2008, 01:16:24 PM »
gratitude, this sounds so much like me and my sister.  She is just like this.  Everything is fine fine fine and then she jumps down my throat and I realize I accidentally tripped over one of her denial tripwires.  For me, I just practice 'dropping the rope' like Ami says.  I take a very hands off approach and just let her be her.  We don't discuss the parent and if a family-related topic comes up I try to only do vague neutral responses and then change the subject.  Because we have gotten into it before and all I can say is 'that way lies dysfunction.'  It ain't pretty and we don't agree and I don't want to go there at all.  My guiding principle I use to measure our interactions and shape my contribution is the concept of keeping each contact positive so that there is nothing to regret, brood or chew over later.  Of course, usually I do chew it over, but I try to keep it to a minimum. 

It used to really bother me that she was in the same house as me and relates to the same people as me but insists that I just need to accept my dad and it's all my problem and I provoke him and that's why he tears into me.    And from my perspective, her denial is definitely affecting her life in some negative ways, but any change absolutely must come from inside her or else you are like someone who leads the horse to water and tries to force it to drink - doesn't work and it is coercive.  So that's why the answer for me is - drop the rope.  She must run her own life and she knows where to come if she becomes ready and able to engage these issues.

But of course we can't really have a strong relationship.  It's really not feasible, because her denial means she cannot in any way hear or respect me in a real way.  I have found that I can live with that as long as I can jettison the ugly, dysfunctional interactions.  Please compost what does not fit for you.
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

gratitude28

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Re: Setting Limits on Me (GChild)
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2008, 01:29:46 PM »
Wow, Iphi. The situation does sound about identical. It amazes me that my sister cannot see how lopsided the relationships are - that NM took care of her in a way that was never afforded me. That she panders after her and hardly recognizes me. So weird. How can a person turn a blind eye in that way? I also feel sad for her, because I know she is trying to make up for what she is denying - if that makes any sense. I would rather be where I am - honest with myself and the situation - than in her shoes any day. I can understand her upset, but at the same time I want to scream at her to wake up.
Iphi, thanks for this post and your other topic thread, as you have really validated me today.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Iphi

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Re: Setting Limits on Me (GChild)
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2008, 04:58:22 PM »
Quote
It amazes me that my sister cannot see how lopsided the relationships are - that NM took care of her in a way that was never afforded me. That she panders after her and hardly recognizes me. So weird. How can a person turn a blind eye in that way?

Hi gratitude - I've thought a lot about these very questions!  Here's what I think now.  The surface appearance is how inequitable and lopsided the relationships appear to be.  But we know for a fact that the N is an N is an N.  I was in denial and played my role to show my loyalty and caring for my N.  And so does my sister stay in denial and play her role to show her loyalty and caring for the N.  The roles seem different but operate the same.  It seems like she gets rewards for loyalty, but the N actually appropriates her to the N's identity.  And she absolutely must play that role, or else.  Or else what? Or else she might have to play my role and who would want that?  So is that all happiness and good relationship, or is that blackmail and coercion?

And as far as what they are getting out of it, it still isn't that appreciation of the GC as a separate individual.  It isn't like they are deeply valued with respect for their integrity as a person.  Because that is what the N cannot do for anyone, even for themselves.  Pretending nothing is wrong is, to me, just the same as asserting the earth is flat or that the moon is made of green cheese.  The GC can just keep on saying nothing is wrong and it's all my fault and so on, but the evidence says differently.  

Anyway, the denial and I am sure my sister justifies the different treatment.  I am sure because I've heard her do it.  Naturally that is why the way my dad treats me must be all my fault and she warrants different treatment because she is a better person than me.  In our case, as far as I can tell, it seems she has bought hook line and sinker a line of thinking that I deserve bad things and punishments.  Short of her actually going to therapy, I cannot imagine her confronting that.  But I have seen the way she seems angry and almost outraged if something good happens to me and you can bet nothing good would happen for me if I was still in the FOO environment.  And I think it angers her that the universe doesn't always operate in a strike-Iphi-down kind of way, because it undermines what she has been taught, and has bought, about what is true.  

And that makes me laugh because my poor dysfunctional family, they are scientists and they always treat me like the great unwashed peasant non-scientist who cannot possibly understand logic and evidence and the scientific method.  That's just a story they tell, part of that false self exceptionalism.  I understand all of these things very well, though admittedly unlike them I do not have a Ph.D.  I thought you might enjoy me sharing the science angle since you wrote your family only values doctors.  

Anyway, my sister looks down on therapy  as being for screwed up people who can't hack it, such as myself, and a few years ago told me a roundabout story in which she did not directly say she was proud to claim mental wellness without having to resort to therapy, but I got the message.  

It's kind of hard to write publicly about the dark currents in our relationship like this.  But there are better currents in it too.

I am glad to be able to share and have it be validating for you Beth!
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Certain Hope

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Re: Setting Limits on Me (GChild)
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 06:41:22 PM »
Dear Beth,

This thread contains such a wealth of helpful insights... thank you for starting it!

I'm sorry that your sister is struggling with her own identity. At least, that's what it sounds like, to me. Her defensiveness tells that tale, I think... and I've been at both ends of that sword. Tough place to be, either way.

I don't know how deeply you want to try to engage her, but it's helped me alot to relate with a couple people who've been willing to call me on my attitudes. The Target deal, for instance. If she shops there and that's the reason for her reaction to your comment about their prices, then she likely felt accused by what was a totally innocent remark on your part. So... what if you were to say to her - "hey, I hope you know that I don't think any less of you if you buy your groceries there!"
Might sound kinda lame, but after the first few times folks were willing to address my "tight" responses to casual comments they'd made, I began to be able to see for myself that my reactions were inappropriate, damaging to relationship, and completely unnecessary. 

No doubt you wish you could trust your sister to talk about anything and not get into a round of button pushing... and maybe that will never be possible... but, who knows? Since you say that she's mostly kind and a pleasure to have around, maybe she just needs some gentle nudges. Then, hopefully, she could see you clearly as someone who's not out to cut her down or criticize her... but only trying to converse openly, with no intent to harm. Might be worth a try? I'm sure glad that a few people who love me have been willing to address my precious moments  :P   lol

Love to you,
Carolyn

gratitude28

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Re: Setting Limits on Me (GChild)
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2008, 06:54:46 PM »
Carolyn,
I have to say you are very right. And my sister takes that kind of gentle criticism very well. One time I told her something along those lines and she apologized and did not repeat the action. I really do believe she is a good person. But I am not much good at conflict, and can't imagine myself jumping on one of the really big bombs (husband, parents). I will be there for her when/if she figures things out (or wants to). Sometimes I think she does. It is almost like she is still childish in those areas.
Iphi,
I think my sister justifies the difference in treatment because she lives close to my parents and I do not. That has been what they have all used for a long time. Honestly, I feel we are even at this point because I don't have to deal with an eighth of the crap she does because I am always fairly far away. Sometimes I think that is she had gone away, she might have been able to see it all more clearly. I can't understand the husband situation at all... I also feel a bit guilty about writing about our relationship. But it does help... me and others, I think.
Izzy,
Yes, it does feel like tripwires. And she may be imitating our parents in the way that we all do before we decide what we want to retain and want we want to lose in our behavior. I did let her go - for years. But I think that it is worth the effort now. She does love the kids a lot, and they love her. I also feel she wants to be happy, and feels that way here.
Thanks you guys!!!!
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Certain Hope

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Re: Setting Limits on Me (GChild)
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 07:00:54 PM »
It is almost like she is still childish in those areas.

Well.. so was I... and if I can learn, Beth, I'm sure your sister can.
And the really big bombs will likely defuse somewhat, gradually, as you two are able to sift through some of the more superficial stuff.
She'll begin to feel safer about being real with you and... well, most likely, she may dissolve into a puddle of tears about one or more of the major issues, rather than explode over it. Maybe I'm dreaming, but I really hope I'm right. If she's like I was, then she's a very lonely person who's afraid that she'll disappear if she doesn't keep fighting against the criticisms she sees and hears everywhere. Defensiveness is a very difficult habit to break, but it can be done!

Love,
Carolyn