Lying Uninvents Language

[gratitude28]

Hops brought up this great quote a few months ago, and somehow I ran across it today.

I notice that she bolded the phrase that "Lying uninvents language."

This phrase is sooooooo true. Language is used to express oneself. It is the formation of ideas into a sound that relates to the idea. Lying is misuse of that idea-sound connection.

I just really like this idea.

Love, Beth

[Betelgeuse]

Beth!

Language...

What is the relationship between language and reality? Between reality and truth? What is the meaning of meaning?

I just love this stuff.

For a shared world, for a sense of self in the world, we need intersubjectivity. We can only communicate if we're reasonably confident the other person designates the world in a similar way, that 'hip' refers to an out-of-date lifestyle, haha.

Lying kills a shared world. Abusing language, such as calling sadism 'discipline', or alleging that mistreatment is 'for your own good' reduces a child's grip on reality. It's crazy-making. That's the flip side.

There is a higher lying, though. Playfulness. Poetry. Creating new meanings, looking for new associations of sound, images, words. Re-inventing reality through different words.

I did that quite literally (I'm a very literal person, ha), I went abroad and learned other languages (so did you, I believe?), such as English. The joy of it! Making the world new by renaming it, every little thing, every feeling, every thought. Being born again to clear, unpolluted language.... (of course we both know it doesn't quite work like that, but what a marvellous illusion. Better than falling in love. A marvellous lie.

Hugs to you Beth,

Bee

[gratitude28]

Bee,
So cool! I am glad you enjoyed the idea (tho' I have to give all credit to Hops).
I think one can only "play" with language on that higher plane when one is comfortable with language. Like you said, our reality was skewed - like teaching a child that "apple" is the word for pony. Others just don't get you, and you don't realize you are not being understood.
Yes, I love the fact that there are ideas that don't translate from one language to another. And also amazing is that language mutates.
Hmmm... the meaning of meaning... can I get back to you on that????????
Do you like Steven Wright?
"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you."
Hee hee
Beth

[Betelgeuse]

'A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking'

Great!

I'd never heard of Steven Wright before (we don't get him here on television) - just googled him. Really funny, I'm going to try to get my hands on some material. Yes, he could have come up with the 'meaning of meaning', instead of all these language philosophers. He's a pretty good practical deconstructionist, haha.

When our words get messed up there's relief to be found in absurdity.

Bee

[Hopalong]

Wallll, though I love that quote and remember when I spotted it I understood it was a rebuke, this conversation also reminds me of a joyous memory. When I was a Poet in the Schools for 4 years, in two states, I taught 3-week intensive workshops in schools of all kinds...urban, rural, suburban, poor, endowed, etc. And I taught every age group from 2nd grade through end of high school.

I started every class the same way. I told them, "I have two rules. Only two." Little ones perked up (they love learning the rules), older ones would sigh. Most were confused (until I taught metaphor) by Rule #1:

You may not rhyme your poems.
 
They all loved Rule #2:

You may lie all you want.

 

Bee...I see 'the higher lie' too. I've spent my best force in poetry.

love
Hops

[gratitude28]

Hops,
You mean it was a rebuke because you lie in poetry? Why is it a rebuke?
I always found peotry to be truthful... am I totally wrong? All of the poets seem to speak of 'great truths.' Writing seems to be an expression of truths.
Help????
Love, Beth

[Hopalong]

Hi Beth,
What I mean is that the original quote ("Lying uninvents language") is a rebuke to a person who lies in relationships. As several people said, it breaks down the hope of intimacy because you can't build trust on lies.

Then I was just wandering off on a tangent to the memory about teaching poetry. The reason I told the kids Rule #2 is because so many of them thought poetry WAS rhyme. That treacle that rhymed was what poetry is. Aaacck! So to get them ready for a bigger adventure, I proscribed the doggerel at the outset. That was all. Plus, Rule#2 also hinted at the insurrectionist side of poetry in culture.

It was just a fun way to wake them up. A very few took it literally and were all worried about "telling lies" but most quickly understood I was just inviting them to turn over some rocks in their heads and open up the associations. It was so joyful...purest job I ever had.

xo
Hops