Question for Dr. G

[Hopalong]

Hi Richard,
Are dual relationships years post-therapy always, always a terrible idea?

Sigh. I have had a few dates with my ex-therapist and I've felt calm, centered,
neither worshipful nor fearful but very ready to love.

He basically bolted down the street screaming about lawsuits.

(I exaggerate, but he oozed fear.)

Just wondered if you think the roles must always be that rigid.
(I've read volumes on dual relationships and the protection of the integrity
of the field and transference and countertransference and I still think it's maybe
sensible most of the time but it's also humorless and unimaginative and deflating.)

What do you think?

thanks,
Hops

[sunblue]

Hops:

I saw this question and I couldn't help but post.  The APA has a fairly strict Code of Conduct regrarding thereapists' relationships with former clients.  I've excerpted part of the code below which speaks specifically to a sexual/personal relationship with former clients.  While they set a minimum of two years as the time period before a therapist can have any kind of relationship with a former client, seems to me they discourage it altogether.

My guess is due to liability issues and the fear of losing their license, most therapists simply stay away from such circumstances. Should the relationship end badly, there would be fear the former client could come back and file charges against him.   However, since your therapist has already moved into this area with you by agreeing to go on several dates with you, perhaps he is only now realizing the potential consequences for him professionally and that is why he is concerned.  Or, perhapss he didn't consider your post-therapy time with him as "dates" or was afraid it was moving too fast?

Right or wrong, and I completely understand your feelings about this, most doctors just choose to stay away from such situations because of the significant consequences it can cause them professionally and personally.

Here's the code:

Sexual Intimacies With Former Therapy Clients/Patients


(a) Psychologists do not engage in sexual intimacies with former clients/patients for at least two years after cessation or termination of therapy.

(b) Psychologists do not engage in sexual intimacies with former clients/patients even after a two-year interval except in the most unusual circumstances. Psychologists who engage in such activity after the two years following cessation or termination of therapy and of having no sexual contact with the former client/patient bear the burden of demonstrating that there has been no exploitation, in light of all relevant factors, including (1) the amount of time that has passed since therapy terminated; (2) the nature, duration, and intensity of the therapy; (3) the circumstances of termination; (4) the client's/patient's personal history; (5) the client's/patient's current mental status; (6) the likelihood of adverse impact on the client/patient; and (7) any statements or actions made by the therapist during the course of therapy suggesting or inviting the possibility of a posttermination sexual or romantic relationship with the client/patient. (

[Hopalong]

I know...I've read it, and since it's been a year and a half, I figured we'd be socializing and getting to know each other for six months. Then there'd be another decision to make.

But he seems to have leapt directly out of the frying pan into the fire when in fact he was in a puddle of milk. I would never wish to harm him.

I felt badly for him because he's as lonely as I am, and I think this life of his has driven him to drink.

Ah well. There will be no fatal attractions, just regret.

What a terrifying profession. Glad I'm not a shrink.

love
Hops

[Hopalong]

PS--He's also a forensic shrink, and a sensitive person. So he spends some of his time in prisons, like last week, when he interviewed a 19 y/o who had shot and killed his gf, a 2 y/o child, and two other adults. And doesn't remember any of it. But this doc perceived it all and said to me, he had a horrible horrible life.

God bless those among us who are strong enough and sacrificial enough to be present to that kind of pain.

(One striking childhood memory he shared was when his mother, who regularly had breakdowns of one sort another, decided she didn't feel like coping with two kids at once--he was about five--so she locked him outside. Almost 60 years later he remembers his thought process: "Well, I'm going to have to feed myself now, so what can I do. I'll go to the garden and get a tomato..." and he trudged off and found one...he remembers it vividly. Clearly symbolic of his abandonment.)

As the evening went on his comments about women grew more and more bitter and explosive and by the time he was stalking off to his car muttering "and there's ANOTHER thing you can evaluate!" I realized he wasn't even talking to me, I had asked him a lot of questions but not in a challenging way--just an attempt to "catch up" since I'd been talking to him for a few years!--but he was battling with ghosts...so I turned the other way and went to my car and went home. Weeping all the way.

Very hard to say goodbye to him but truly, saying goodbye to a few weeks of happy fantasies and the belief that I'd found love and would be building a relationship, a future with a mate...that was the real grief.

Hops

Whew. Sad all around.

[sunblue]

Hops:

Has he told you outright he's not interested in pursuing anything further with you?  From the way you describe him, maybe his fear is not just that you are a former client, but that you represent a potential love interest at all....Unless he has made it clear to you that he doesn't want to pursue any kind of personal relationship with you, maybe you should keep the door open and try to just socialize without any strings attached....It could be he just needs time to figure all this out...and figure himself out....Even if it turns out, you just end up spending some time together, that would still be a good thing, right?  And you never know...it's not completely unheard of that a therapist and former client hook up after the therapeutic relationship has ended....I'd treat it like any other potential relationship.....go slowly, get to know each other, see if there is mutual interest...and then work out any "issues" that might get in the way...Either way, I wouldn't take it personally----sounds like he may have his own struggles to work through that have nothing to do with you or the fact that you're a former client...

Good luck....and don't give up....the right one is out there for you...In the meantime, enjoy every minute of the "getting to know you" process...

[Gaining Strength]

Very hard to say goodbye to him but truly, saying goodbye to a few weeks of happy fantasies and the belief that I'd found love and would be building a relationship, a future with a mate...that was the real grief.

I'm sorry Hops.  I'm so glad you had a few weeks of "happy fantasies" and the joy of looking forward to a relationship.  Those I know were nice.  I hope you will focus on how those felt so that those memories will override the grief ones.  That might make the next love interest more appealing rather than fearing a repeat end.

I so hope you will find a better fit very soon.   I hoping for one myself.  I was with three other mothers at a birthday party this afternoon.  One is married, another found love a year ago and is engaged, the third just found love and I'm counting on being next.  (right after you) 

I am holding the thought that he was an appetizer, come along just to get your hunger started.  You have not been served the entree yet.  Don't clear the table yet - the real meal has yet to be served.  Love - GS

[Hopalong]

thank you, Sun, Izzz, GS...I really appreciate your responses.
Very awkward thing to talk about, but I'm feeling okay.
I was very sad for a night and a day, then really did a shake-up-wake-up kind of thing.

He was in full-tilt panic that had nothing to do with me, and no Sun, there isn't going to be any relationship.
He said as much by email, before I got home.

I've responded and said my piece and wished him well and that's that.

Mainly, it was good to feel hopeful...but we all know how dashed hopes feel too.

Good coping today was church, a long meeting, then Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day (with Frances McDermott) with a good friend. She was so supportive, and the movie SO delightful on every level. I feel better.

I'm not mad at him. Just kind of stunned at the intensity of his fear and projections.

Yoicks.
(Izz, Doc G can answer my question here...wasn't asking him to diagnose anything. No worries.)

love,
Hops

[Lupita]

It is a NO-NO

Imagine that you engage with him. Can you always trust him that he will not engage in sex activities in his work?

Please answer me this question, please.

[Lupita]

Imagine that instead of a personal trainer in mind you get a personal trainer in the body at the gym. Are you going to trust him when he goes to work to the gym? He might fall in love with anothe rclient? Do you see my point?
It is a no-no

In the case of an MD (doctor) it is totally forbiden, he loses his license. Period.

What about a gynecologist? Can he remember all the genitals that he sees everyday? How about a proctologist? Cam he remember all the rectums he sees everyday? Would it be OK??????


Just food for thought.

Sorry if I do not make any sense, I just took my muscle relax peal because after the accident my muscles are very contractured.

[Lupita]

Any position of authority, prison in mates with guards, correctioanl officers, when you go to a therapistr, he is ain a position of authority, adn you surrender your most intimate
thoughtds to him, teachers with students, etc etc

 IA TI OK????????????????

[Hopalong]

Hi Lupita...
I do understand why they frown on dual relationships.
I do.

And it's a moot point anyway, since it's over before it began.

(He is not one who would do sexual activity with a current client, and has never before me risked involvement with a former client. This is what he said, and he is an honest man.)

But the real point is, it's over before it began. So there's no decision for me to make.

Just processing the loss of a hope.

love
Hops

[Hopalong]

Another side of it...
it was kind of a shock to see this man whom I trusted and even loved (before it felt romantic) be drunk, slurring his words, ranting about this and that (using the F word) and raging about women...his ex, hypothetical litigious ex clients (that was where his fear kicked in) and by extension, I guess, me.

It was sad and in some way I haven't fully allowed myself to feel yet, it was hurtful.

I did not deserve that.

Perhaps I should have never told him I'd like to see him socially.
(Speaking of boundaries, TT.) So I have some guilt, too...I know the rules.

Jeez. I don't know if it's an Ntrait in me (oh those pesky rules, surely they wouldn't apply to special me). Except I never ever asked for him to transgress the rules. I just asked him what they were, and he told me, and then after a year and a half...he called me.

Trying to measure my level of accountability and sort out the guilt I'm suddenly feeling.
I feel as though I hurt him by stirring a sleeping beast. (He's no beast, I just mean, he is a vulnerable human being too, not a robot.)

Help?

Perspectives very welcome.

thanks,
Hops

[axa]

Well Hops, I, for one, am glad he bolted.  I think you do not need or deserve that level of rudeness.  Sounds to me like this man has LOTS of ISSUES and you have worked so hard you deserve someone who is kind, smart, funny and loving not someone who seems to me to be so raging that he cannot contain himself......... his behaviour has nothing to do with you, as you note, and he choose to meet with you..............  now what other fish are out there???????????/

Hugs,

axa

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Hops,

“Are dual relationships years post-therapy always, always a terrible idea?”

If we are speaking of a romantic relationship between therapist and patient, my answer is yes.  Once a therapist to someone, always a therapist, and if a therapist is having trouble with this issue, he or she should be talking to his or her own therapist about it.  “Therapist” is a very special role—a unique attachment for a patient—and the memories for both patient and therapist last a lifetime.  Any “waiting period” (such as the APA’s two year rule) is arbitrary and meaningless.  After two years post-therapy, I don’t cease to be my patient’s therapist.  Sometimes patients call me years after I stopped seeing them—my relationship to them is exactly the same as it was the day we stopped.

I hope this helps.

Best,

Richard   

[ann3]

Hops,

There's a semi-new series on HBO called In Treatment and one of the main issues is whether a therapist should have a love relationship with his patient Laura.  The season just ended.

Perhaps you can rent the show.  Watch the Laura sessions and the Paul/Gina sessions- that would be 18 25 minute episodes.  Pail, the therapist, is torn over whether he should have a love relationship with his patient Laura, so Paul goes into therapy with his therapist, Gina.  I loved this show.

ann