Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Why is it?
Feline:
Look I don't fixate on this stuff. It overwhelmes me sometimes.I feel intensely that's all. I am recovering from trauma and part of my recovering means finding the wisdom to know the difference I agree..And when I can't change things and I know it,I still care. It's called compassion.Compassion hurts when you feel it sometimes.
What I mean by sanity is this:everyone in this world has problems in life,everyone has flaws in thier thinking,or perceptions,everyone reacts to stuff,puts thier foot in it,or gets stuck in the wrong head space. I do that plenty.Sometimes humanity is actively choosing it,sometimes unconsiously sometimes it's circumstances,or manipulation or baggage or a mix of these things. Life and people are complicated mlulti layered things.
Sanity is a fluid,amorphous thing no one can pin into a box.
It is subjective.Sanity can come out of people other people tell you are crazy. And sane looking people can be really out there.You just can't go on appearances.
There are always social forces and people out there that say you can't change things.Human nature blah,blah,will of god ect. They seem to be offended by your non acceptance of the status quo and the will you express to help better the situation here.Sometimes when I am overwhelmed I'm not ekloquent.I say harshness that reflects the state of my heart at the time I say it. People and groups that tell you to give up shut up and just lump it,they want you to feel like they feel.Or even worse make you feel like a nut for even daring to dream a better world and doing the actions to make it true.
This is disempowering.I ain't going along with that game. It keeps things as they are which I find tragic.
The wisdom of knowing the difference is hard, it's a struggle. I learn more how to do it everyday.but every situation is different.
Accepting I am limited in what I can do is hard on me sometimes, but I desire healing.I desire healing for life itself. I dream big.
When it's obvious I can't help I let it go.I have to.
But despite letting go I still feel deep sadness,sadness at the suffering itself.Sadness at watching it unfold.
My voice is one of the ones that says reality itself is very sick and people can reflect it on each other. Even when they are doing good or think they are.Evasion does not help.
Ever hear that life script idea from Transactional Analysis? The I'm Ok Your'e OK idea?
Well here's my Script:
I'm not OK, You're not OK AND I'm OK, You're OK.
I hold both contradictory scripts in my mind because life and the human being is that complex. People are ok than they are not I am ok than I'm not. things are fluid.changeable.Ego is not one it's many facets in one. Some of it is ok some of it ain't and it's in everyone. You can't erase your ego. Sublimated ego can be just the 'ol stink of enlightenment.
Now when I get the serenity prayer in response to my compassion and frustration ,mourning and anger at being told I deserve eternal torment because I exist,it hurts,it offends.It's that I am overwhelmed with. I can be offended at the implication of just stuffing it in serenity pladitudes can be applied that way.I have seen the serenity prayer being used by narcissists in this way before.( not including the god thing I don't care about that issue,and I know you didn't say the serenity prayer to bring god into it,you said it for other reasons)
My religion does not matter at all I agree. Religion does not matter in lifde alot frankly. It matters how I use my religion in my life.
Some people use religion to justify being a bully,being pushy,being cruel and dominating.This ain't spiritual and alot people seem to be unable sometimes to see through that or to change the religion and thier relationship with it to reflect the better person inside themselves that is struggling there under all thier baggage ,confusion and wounds..
But what does matter ultimately to me, is how I treat others. How I treat myself and the way I apply my boundaries in my own life. My integrity is my choice and responsibility and it need not mean a damn thing to anyone else.They are not me. Sometimes my feelings isn't all about me.And this is how life is in a relational world, it's complicated .. I choose to care despite that . I choose to act in a way that helps in the best way I can figure out at the time.If I find out in hindsight it could have been better,I don't feel guilty, at least I listened to my heart and did or said something real. I choose to try to see reality and not evade it,and that is sometimes very emotionally taxing on me,and this is why I post here. To find my voice and to walk my talk better .I am wrong alot of the time too.
. Alot of people talk and walk away.
Like I said I want to be better than this world. And taking this route is hard sometimes,there are alot of people threatened by what you feel and say, who'll try to make you lose your sensitivity or stop caring.So I need to vent,to be encouraged and be encoraging and to express it..
That's my experince.
gnostikos:
What I am hearing from Feline is that:
1) There are harmful religious attitudes and actions, that are a serious problem, that reflect some sort of sickness, that has very negative social effects
2) The environment forces some of these facts upon some of us, regardless of our choices, so we are in a position where we must deal with reactions, triggers, traumas, overwhelmed feelings
3) There is great danger in avoiding or denying these issues, and there are definitely times when it is a great disservice to ones self, to simply ignore them or remain silent.
4) Sanity is often defined as conforming to a sick society. More reasonably, it is described in terms of coping, and yet some situations cannot be coped with by any meaningful definition of 'cope'... All need healing, and so there is no perfect blueprint, certainly no rigid prototype, of what 'normal' or 'sane' is. There are only descriptions of relative coping, relative healing.
5) Choosing to have integrity and to help heal and show compassion, were mentioned, as answers.
----
I don't see a reason to assume that Feline is making herself miserable. I do see a reason to believe that Feline is describing some real problems, that reach into our society itself, and into very common human challenges that are really difficult.
I don't see how any platitude can seriously be posited as a simple or quick fix answer to the deepest of human challenges. Perhaps platitudes are a way of avoiding the complexity of the issues, and a way to try to sidestep the fact that some things take a lot of time, and that some deep overwhelming issues are profoundly troubling and not resolved so easily... and perhaps platitudes help some people feel superior as they avoid listening...
Anonymous:
--- Quote from: Feline ---Look I don't fixate on this stuff. It overwhelmes me sometimes.I feel intensely that's all. I am recovering from trauma and part of my recovering means finding the wisdom to know the difference I agree..And when I can't change things and I know it,I still care. It's called compassion.Compassion hurts when you feel it sometimes.
--- End quote ---
Okay.
--- Quote from: Feline ---What I mean by sanity is this:everyone in this world has problems in life,everyone has flaws in thier thinking,or perceptions,everyone reacts to stuff,puts thier foot in it,or gets stuck in the wrong head space. I do that plenty.Sometimes humanity is actively choosing it,sometimes unconsiously sometimes it's circumstances,or manipulation or baggage or a mix of these things. Life and people are complicated mlulti layered things.
--- End quote ---
I agree.
--- Quote from: Feline ---Sanity is a fluid,amorphous thing no one can pin into a box.
It is subjective.Sanity can come out of people other people tell you are crazy. And sane looking people can be really out there.You just can't go on appearances.
--- End quote ---
Sanity is subjective to some degree. There are plenty of books and movies where the supposedly sane people are actually evil, insane, etc. However in life I think we know when we're dealing with a sane person. We can feel the sanity in our interactions with them. Usually the person is relatively calm, not overreactive, not defensive, not angry, not retaliatory.
--- Quote from: Feline ---There are always social forces and people out there that say you can't change things.Human nature blah,blah,will of god ect.
--- End quote ---
And one of my questions was and is, how is it that you're dealing with people who don't share your goals? What are these people doing there?
--- Quote from: Feline ---Accepting I am limited in what I can do is hard on me sometimes, but I desire healing.I desire healing for life itself. I dream big.
When it's obvious I can't help I let it go.I have to.
But despite letting go I still feel deep sadness,sadness at the suffering itself.Sadness at watching it unfold.
My voice is one of the ones that says reality itself is very sick and people can reflect it on each other. Even when they are doing good or think they are.Evasion does not help.
--- End quote ---
Reality is sick. There is a lot of suffering. There are things you can do and things you can't. If you have money, you can help a lot of people. If you don't have money, your ability to help will be more limited. That is part of the sick reality. Some people won't accept reality and they become heroes. That takes a certain kind of person, one who is able to get major things done.
--- Quote from: Feline ---Now when I get the serenity prayer in response to my compassion and frustration ,mourning and anger at being told I deserve eternal torment because I exist,it hurts,it offends.
--- End quote ---
Feline, I'm sorry if I offended you with the serenity prayer. I certainly didn't intend it as an offense. I think it's one of the wisest things I ever heard, and they are words that I live by. It's not meant to put you down. I don't believe the serenity prayer says to give up, stuff it, that you deserve eternal torment, or anything like that. It involves thinking about what we want to do and then do it.
There is a place to vent. At some point, only action will accomplish the goals you're talking about. You know that, though. You took action about the child molester and that was the way to go.
bunny
Anonymous:
--- Quote from: gnostikos ---I don't see how any platitude can seriously be posited as a simple or quick fix answer to the deepest of human challenges. Perhaps platitudes are a way of avoiding the complexity of the issues, and a way to try to sidestep the fact that some things take a lot of time, and that some deep overwhelming issues are profoundly troubling and not resolved so easily... and perhaps platitudes help some people feel superior as they avoid listening...
--- End quote ---
Maybe you feel superior calling the serenity prayer a platitude. It is not a platitude.
bunny
gnostikos:
If you wish, re-read my post carefully. Do you disagree with any of it? Do you agree with any of it?
I think a lot of ideas can be used as plattitudes, though they need not be platittudes. I personally value the Serenity prayer. My point about platitudes was mostly that life is complex, and change is often slow, and being overwhelmed is not easily dealt with, and that simple concepts can be thrown out at people to avoid these things, and that we can latch onto certain formula, but that might miss the point.
The Serenity prayer does not really offer practical, helpful, insight, at certain stages of dealing with complex and deep issues, especially when there are personal as well as social factors involved. The Serenity Prayer offers the guidance to accept what cannot be changed, but does not indicate just how that is likely to happen, it offers the guidance to change the things that we can, without offering much comfort in the difficulty of the effort involved and the possibility that the effort may be in vain, and it councels wisdom to know the difference, without any input as to how to tell that we have gained wisdom or whether we are being fooled.
When the complexities and overwhelming realities have been expressed, worked through, or reached a point where the discussion of them is winding down, it is helpful to affirm the values of wise acceptance and courage, and openness to input and assistance from without. But while these things are being expressed or worked on, the Serenity Prayer brings up those other questions, of HOW? And the HOW seems to be part of the discussion.
I wasn't trying to psychoanalyse you, but it seemed to me fairly obvious that Feline's actual points weren't being discussed, or seemed to be avoided or misunderstood.
If it was just misunderstanding, that's fine, now maybe we can look at the issues that were brought up, and the realities that are difficult to deal with?
Then when it comes time to say the Serenity Prayer and carry on and take the next steps or move on with other aspects of life, we will all be better equiped, with maybe a little more wisdom?
It is painful to address these issues, is it not? It is sometimes easy to overemphasize what we've accomplished, and to minimize the pain or the messy details.
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