Author Topic: Manipulation  (Read 4276 times)

Gabben

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Manipulation
« on: April 28, 2008, 03:01:35 PM »
Lately, I have been thinking about the therapy work I did with Nsaint and the lies she weaved through my mind.

I can recall the very first time I met her and how she was so full of flattery and charm, leaving a remarkable impression on me. I also realized that I felt easy in her presence; as if she was the most completely non-judgemental person I had ever met. But now I realize that she was really was not interesting in discerning my character or gaining insight into who I was because I can see that she was sizing me up and trying to discern if whether or not I could be a source of suppply for her. Hindsight has perfect vision. It reminds me of the painting by François Lemoyne titled: Time Saving Truth from Falsehood and Envy.

Understanding manipulation and the ways that I was not at fault is making it easier for me to get Nsaint out of my life. However, I was told that my betrayal trauma might take at least a good year, without closure, and another 6 months with closure. I am not banking on closure.

I'm sorry --  one of these days I'll be past Nsaint.


Manipulation

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The way narcissists (and psychopaths) interact with others makes them extremely potent manipulators. How potent? So potent that their powers of manipulation are spooky and seem downright magical.

How does the way they interact with others make them such expert manipulators? Because practice makes perfect, and they have been practicing the art of manipulation in every interaction since birth.

Indeed, in playing to the mirror of your face, that's what they're doing, isn't it? Manipulating you. Everything they say and do is entirely for effect, to get the reaction they want from you. That IS manipulation.



They're regulating, manipulating your reactions. But you aren't like them. Your reactions come from within. So, what are they ultimately regulating and manipulating? Your thoughts. Manipulation is mind control.

Manipulation is a subtle thing. So subtle that we are usually unaware of being manipulated, unless the manipulator blows it and breaks the spell. So, manipulators are putting thoughts into our heads that we think are ours. A very dangerous thing.

Since a narcissist isn't acting on normal human premises, since all he is doing is playing you for the reaction he wants, truth is irrelevant. Truth or lies — it's all the same to him. Whichever works. Usually that's lies.

It would be more correct to say that there is no such thing as truth to a narcissist. Because there is no such thing as truth when playing Pretend. That's why narcissists and psychopaths beat lie detector tests. (In fact, so do many people from "shame" cultures where lying to save face of oneself, one's family, one's tribe, and one's religion is considered morally necessary and expected.)

Psychopaths are known to get so good at manipulating people that, by the time they're teenagers, they routinely fool and manipulate mental healthcare professionals, judges, prison officials, parole boards, and social workers who know they are psychopaths, are on the lookout for attempts to manipulate them, and should be immune to manipulation.

It isn't a matter of intelligence: it's a matter of practice, experience. This is because most of what transpires in interaction happens too quickly to think it through.

In playing to the mirror of your face, the narcissist receives a steady stream of your feedback to the steady stream of words and body language he sends. He continuously reacts to every nuance of it in "real time," if you will. A sideways glance from you might make him alter his choice for the next word in the sentence he is saying. Or his facial expression or tone of voice. Or it might make him take a step closer to you.

So, no matter how cunning a manipulator is, he isn't consciously analyzing your every slight reaction and fine-tuning his act to it. I say that because he can't be. That would be impossible, because no one could think that fast.

He must be relying on a lifetime of experience at this game, reacting habitually in certain ways to certain things he observes in you on the fly. In other words, this manipulation must be rather like the act of hitting a forehand in tennis.

You cannot consciously think your way through the stroke. Too many things are happening too fast. In fact, you will botch your stroke and be lucky to even connect with the ball if you try to consciously think your way through with "Watch the ball ... bend your knees ... keep your arm straight ... keep your head still ... step into the shot ... et ad infinitum." Well, that's exaggerating a bit, because there are only about 100 instructions I could list for hitting a forehand ;-)

You can't think that fast. No one can. So, you must practice that stroke enough under varying conditions to program the unconscious centers of the brain to execute it virtually automatically. When you net your shot or hit it out (provided you note how far off the shot was), your "program" is revised to get the bug out.

This phenomenon is called Natural Learning. It's how we learn to walk and talk.

That "program" isn't just a fixed set of muscle commands from the brain. It's an interactive program like a computer program. Because no two forehands are the same. Yet the more you practice, the better your forehand program, and the more effectively it faithfully produces a good forehand under widely varying conditions. You have only to make the major decisions, such as where and how to hit the ball: speed, spin, and placement. But Natural Learning is so powerful that even tactical decisions become virtually automatic in advanced players. Hence the best players in the world do very little conscious thinking while the ball's in play.

The power of Natural Learning is also illustrated by comparing experienced drivers with young drivers. Young drivers have no experience, so they must think their way through problems. Result? Crash. But with the same problem an experienced driver has no problem. He or she spontaneously makes an intuitive, instinctive move faster than the speed of thought. Result? No crash.

When playing to the mirror of your face, that must be what a narcissist is mostly doing — relying on a lifetime of experience that allows him to react instinctively to every bit of feedback he gets from you. That's how he fine-tunes your reactions into the feedback he wants. Rather like turning the knobs on a short-wave radio.

This is manipulation. And it's occurring faster than the speed of thought, because a narcissist has had so much constant practice at drawing the look he wants that most of his "moves" are virtually automatic.

This is why, I think, narcissists seem like machines with their knee-jerk reactions to things. But those reactions aren't knee-jerk reflexes: they are learned through experience to the point that they become habitual as second nature.

This is also why, I think, we tend to overestimate the intelligence of narcissists, psychopaths, con artists, and other manipulators like dictators who con their way to power. We think they must be brilliant to be so manipulative. But even a stupid narcissist I knew was extremely manipulative. Their skill is the fruit of constant practice at manipulation in every human interaction.

But it doesn't pay to underestimate them, either. That same practice makes them extremely observant and perceptive. Over time that will improve their intelligence, at least some aspects of it.

In fact, they are much more observant and perceptive than they seem. That's because all they're interested in is what they can use. So, though they block out much, what they do choose to see, they see very well. They are interested in your reactions, not you. So, they probably are more aware of how you react to things than you are. But the only information about you they're interested in is what that can use to exploit you. The rest they filter out of consciousness = forget.

So, never think that you are too smart to be manipulated by a narcissist, psychopath, or con artist. You aren't. And you surely can never beat one at his own game.

That's nothing to be ashamed of. It just means that you are an innocent who hasn't spent his or her whole life practicing the black art. So, you won't win that game.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 04:13:17 PM by Gabben »

gratitude28

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2008, 03:06:13 PM »
Don't apoligize, Lise...
It takes a long time, I think, to accept we have been duped. I consider myself fairly astute at reading people, and I have been tricked. I always need to see how it could have happened - what did I miss? Or why did I swallow what I knew was untrue????? I understand 100% and your information will help others here.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

darren

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2008, 03:29:25 PM »
I'm a smart guy, and I fell into one of these traps.  I don't like to think of myself as duped, just unaware.  I spent my whole dealing with people who occasionally do bad things but would feel guilty about it on some level... I did not know there were people out there who operated differently.  Because I've my own weirdness, I've spent my whole life fascinated with psychology text books.  And I read them up and down trying to find out what was happening in my relationship and passed over the answer probably two dozen times not recognizing it for what it was.  It took many years before I realized I was being abused.  Sure, all my efforts were wasted, but I did the same thing everybody else does...


Gabben

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2008, 04:01:33 PM »
Don't apologize, Lise...
It takes a long time, I think, to accept we have been duped. I consider myself fairly astute at reading people, and I have been tricked. I always need to see how it could have happened - what did I miss? Or why did I swallow what I knew was untrue????? I understand 100% and your information will help others here.
Love, Beth


Thanks Beth -- I needed your kind words today.

My goal lately has been to practice patience despite the pain of the situation and my desire for justice. I am trying to swallow that justice may never come in this situation and I am thinking about how I can handle that.

Reading books, that are not psychology oriented, novels, and watching movies has really helped.

I've put myself in triage for a month after the PTSD that showed up a while ago, God knows I need it. As soon as I feel better I'm going to start hitting a lot of meetings...they will help keep me humble.

Peace,
Lise

Gabben

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2008, 04:03:08 PM »
  I don't like to think of myself as duped, just unaware. 


I think it is both...we get duped because we are unaware.


Thanks for your post Darren. I'm glad that you are still hanging here, working to process.

Lise

darren

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2008, 04:21:49 PM »
  I don't like to think of myself as duped, just unaware. 


I think it is both...we get duped because we are unaware.


Thanks for your post Darren. I'm glad that you are still hanging here, working to process.

Lise

You're welcome!  Thanks for sharing... its good to know I'm not alone in the kinds of things I've been through.

Certain Hope

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2008, 08:59:44 PM »
But now I realize that she was really was not interesting in discerning my character or gaining insight into who I was because I can see that she was sizing me up and trying to discern if whether or not I could be a source of suppply for her.

Exactly!!  Not a bit interested in who you really are, but satisfied with a glimpse... maybe because that glimpse reflected enough of herself that she felt entitled to claim ownership and define the rest of you, according to her (not so good) pleasure. That sort of love which is a mile wide, but only an inch deep... and the moment it's convenient, you become the dumping ground for all her unwanted traits, as she tries to force you to own them, so that she can continue in denial. Yuck!
That's hurtful enough when it happens in a supposed friendship, but for a therapist/counselor to use people that way.... it's criminal. All I can say is that God must have known that you are strong enough to overcome all these challenges, Lise, by His grace, and to come out the other side with a wisdom and compassion that'll never fail. That's my hope.

Love,
Carolyn

Hopalong

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2008, 01:37:57 AM »
Hi Darren,

I can relate to the frustration of having had the knowledge right under your nose but having passed right over it...me, too. It took many, many passes before I realized that the power of my own fantasizing was overwhelming, enough to help me get stuck and stay stuck in so many yearning-states over people who couldn't love me or were unavailable.

Hits home. I hope not to do it ever again but think I should always stay aware of my propensity for "making it up."

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

teartracks

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2008, 02:20:23 AM »



Gabben,

You may have read this already.  I always say I can smell manipulation.  After all these years, reading this article  makes my stomach churn.  It was a huge breakthrough when I understood that a lie is at the heart of narcissist behavior.  Believing the N's lie is at the heart of voicelessness.  Have you read In Sheep's Clothing?  This article is an excerpt from it.  Here's the link.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html

tt


Certain Hope

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2008, 08:57:05 AM »



Gabben,

You may have read this already.  I always say I can smell manipulation.  After all these years, reading this article  makes my stomach churn.  It was a huge breakthrough when I understood that a lie is at the heart of narcissist behavior.  Believing the N's lie is at the heart of voicelessness.  Have you read In Sheep's Clothing?  This article is an excerpt from it.  Here's the link.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html

tt



Dear tt,

Great article... thank you so much for providing this link! 

As disturbing as the content is, I know that it's absolutely vital for each of us to be aware of these techniques and tricks of aggressive manipulators. As they guilt, connive, shame, blame, distort, and finagle their ways through life, we can be prepared to guard our own hearts against them! 

To me, the following is one of the most disconcerting, insidious aspects of these manipulators behaviors:

"Vilifying the Victim – This tactic is frequently used in conjunction with the tactic of playing the victim role. The aggressor uses this tactic to make it appear he is only responding (i.e. defending himself against) aggression on the part of the victim. It enables the aggressor to better put the victim on the defensive.

Returning again to the story of Jenny and Amanda, when Amanda accuses her mother of "hating" her and "always saying mean things" to her, she not only invites Jenny to feel the "bully," but simultaneously succeeds in "bullying" Jenny into backing off. More than any other, the tactic of vilifying the victim is a powerful means of putting someone unconsciously on the defensive while simultaneously masking the aggressive intent and behavior of the person using the tactic."

But I see now - - -   as we refuse to bend over and receive the abuser's strap, as we reject the offense and do not pick it up, then we'll not take the defensive track and thereby the manipulator's true motivation will become clear to all.
This is great news :D

Love,
Carolyn



darren

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2008, 10:04:39 AM »
Hi Darren,

I can relate to the frustration of having had the knowledge right under your nose but having passed right over it...me, too. It took many, many passes before I realized that the power of my own fantasizing was overwhelming, enough to help me get stuck and stay stuck in so many yearning-states over people who couldn't love me or were unavailable.

Hits home. I hope not to do it ever again but think I should always stay aware of my propensity for "making it up."

hugs
Hops

Yup, yup, I found myself making many excuses for people where there really were none.  I'll never really understand how I got targeted for manipulation though.  My biggest question when it all start was "why me?"  and that it just didn't make any sense.  When I ran across my ex I had no money, no job, was about to be homeless... I had tons of issues and wasn't really going anywhere.  Somewhere deep inside I knew I was being used, but I didn't believe it because... there was nothing about me at the time that was worth anything.  I still can't exactly figure out what she was using me for. 

Gabben

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2008, 12:03:34 PM »
I'll never really understand how I got targeted for manipulation though. 

Hi Darren,

You got targeted for manipulation because that is what people who manipulate do is project there behavior that they are disowning onto you.

Manipulators, N's etc., accuse you of the very thing that they do themselves. It is so dang twisted and so frustrating.

It is like Carolyn says..."as we refuse to bend over and receive the abuser's strap,"  we have to learn to know ourselves and if we know what are own behavior is then when others project their dirt onto us we can see and shield ourselves better.

That is part of why I was unable to see N-saint's projection, I had not come to the point of seeing myself or knowing myself as well as I do now.

Lise




darren

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2008, 12:10:29 PM »
I'll never really understand how I got targeted for manipulation though. 

Hi Darren,

You got targeted for manipulation because that is what people who manipulate do is project there behavior that they are disowning onto you.

Manipulators, N's etc., accuse you of the very thing that they do themselves. It is so dang twisted and so frustrating.

It is like Carolyn says..."as we refuse to bend over and receive the abuser's strap,"  we have to learn to know ourselves and if we know what are own behavior is then when others project their dirt onto us we can see and shield ourselves better.

That is part of why I was unable to see N-saint's projection, I had not come to the point of seeing myself or knowing myself as well as I do now.

Lise


Yes they do!  That is also one of the things that frustrated me that I have trouble letting go of.  I got blamed for her actions and a lot of people fell for it.  I did learn to shield myself from it, but not from the normal people who accepted her projections as real life.  Its still affecting me.  Thats something good to think about... I think maybe letting go of it has more to do with me knowing who I am more than it does others knowing who I am. 

Gabben

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2008, 12:20:07 PM »



Gabben,

You may have read this already.  I always say I can smell manipulation.  After all these years, reading this article makes my stomach churn.  It was a huge breakthrough when I understood that a lie is at the heart of narcissist behavior.  Believing the N's lie is at the heart of voicelessness.  Have you read In Sheep's Clothing?  This article is an excerpt from it.  Here's the link.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html

tt



Love that book! I own it. It is a good quick easy read. Actually, before I started researching narcissism I came accross that book and was convinced that Nsaint was just a manipualtor. But that still did not account for all of the other unanswered questions I had so I went searching more and found about N's and P's...I think she is somewhere in between, if that is possible?

tt -- I am so glad that you can smell manipulation! There are so many people fooled by N-saints lies, power, her saintly facade it makes me question myself and wonder if people like you, who can radar dishonesty, are far and few in between.

One of the memories I have of N saint that always helped me when I was questioning, was listening to her give a talk at my church. She was trying to recruit people for her prayer ministry. A week before her talk she rehearsed it in front of me. She ended her talk with these most curious tears I had ever seen....my gut jumped and told me immediately "those are fake!" but I just could not believe in a million years that anyone would fake tears for a Godly cause or, fake tears regardless, how naive I was.

So then the next week she is at the church doing her actual talk and right towards the end there were those tears again; I said to myself "wow...right on cue," shaking my head in doubt.  However, I gave her the benefit of the doubt,I told myself "she is just a superwonder of a caring soul."

N saint used to complain that our pastor would never look at her and that she felt shunned by him. Now I know why, he definitely knew who she was.

Keep that bull**** detector tuned tt! :D

Lise

Gabben

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Re: Manipulation
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2008, 12:27:31 PM »

Yes they do!  That is also one of the things that frustrated me that I have trouble letting go of.  I got blamed for her actions and a lot of people fell for it.  I did learn to shield myself from it, but not from the normal people who accepted her projections as real life.  Its still affecting me.  Thats something good to think about... I think maybe letting go of it has more to do with me knowing who I am more than it does others knowing who I am. 

Dear Darren,

Your post helps me today more than you know. It is so hard to move past the N's in this life, is it not?  I can say that many people have fallen for N saints lies about me, it hurts and it is frustrating, just like you say so I know what you mean and how it can still affect us.

This is a growing point, or what today feels like a jumping off place, I have to jump away my ego and pride that want to feed off of what others think of me even when those others are not my true friends. I am facing that fact, harshly, that no one can define me. For me, it is painful though and not easy to grow away from pride and ego...bleh! Especially when we had to grow up in an environment that was loveless or without much love.

Some days are better than others, correct?